two questions: one on AIC and the other on scanner-blocking nebulas

[Yimboli]

Do not starliners have maintenance bonuses?

oh, they definitely do. maintenance is currently KILLING my economy. I wonder how the computer manages to have SO MANY ships, so i played as them for a turn, and it turns out that the ships that cost me over 1000 minerals in maintenance cost them about 200! Proportions mod? More like Disproportions mod! back to my question...

no one has really answered my question. I can put population transport modules on, say, destroyers and ship people overe 5x as fast. The tonnage isn't that much more, either. SO, why have starliners? they'rejust slow and high maintenance. And again, why have *large* starliners that are just as slow and only have room for 20 kT more space (which can't be used for population transport components cuz i'm already at the max of 3!)?

Thanks for the information all, it's like throwing spaghetti at a wall - keep throwin it at me cuz a little more sticks each time.

-Tim

[Alneyan]

Try to design a Destroyer, and then load it up with population. You will see that it cannot work with your basic technology, since you will not have enough space to put one million settlers on it.

I will develop my explanation of the "why you must use Starliners to transport population" (at least in the early game).
- The Starliner hull gives you 1798 cargo space (if memory serves), which is enough to transport one million settlers (requiring 1,000 cargo space).
- The Starliner module gives you 101 cargo space, which makes 202 if you put two of them on your Starliner. It allows you to reach the 2,000 cargo mark, and so you can transport two million settlers with such a design.

If you do not need the extra storage (meaning you will transport units), you could put life support or something else on the Starliners instead. Otherwise, you will need to cope with them until you can develop higher hulls with the best cargo technology, since you will need 10 Cargo Bays III to transport one million settlers.

Incidentally, there is no need to put three Starliner modules on the basic Starliner hull, since the modules on themselves offer little advantage. Instead, put the three modules on your Large Starliners, allowing you to ship three million settlers with every travel, since this hull gives you 2697 basic storage ability. (Plus 101 per Starliner module, and so the 3,000 needed to carry three millions)

In short, you only need to have a cargo space of 1,000 per million settlers, and Starliners are the only way to achieve this until you can reach much higher levels of technology. The Modules themselves are merely helpful to reach this mark, and gives you all the Life Supports you need as well.

[Yimboli]

*ohhhhhhhhhhhhh*

i get it! you're right, i had never noticed that it is the *starliner hull* that holds all the people, and not the population transport thingies. Thanks!

[JLS]

Originally posted by oleg:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yimboli:
about the population transporting: I can just as easily put a population transport component on a frigate, and have it go much faster. so why have a starliner??

To top it off, the "large" starliner is a wopping 20 kT bigger - and just as slow. Why?

Thanks!
-Timbo

AIC is based on Proportions mod. Now, the main idea of Proportions is "realistic" treat of the population in SEIV. Shipping 1M people (and their books, clothes, furniture, cars...)to other world should certainly require enormous ships, not puny military frigates. Just think of Titanic
Unfortunately, when calculating player strength, SEIV takes no account to the true military power but the total tonnage of ships. It upsets AI relations . Because of this, JLS moded small populations transports that can held a lot of cargo and very slow but still relatively small. Just use your imagination and think of them as huge lumbering space starliners !

---

Based on the 1000 mass game scale that both AIC and Proportions utilizes:

Freighters (Small Starliners) When the Population LS Module is not used as to save Organics will make a fine (slow but effective) unit Transport with over 900kts Storage.

(Starliners both medium and large) have 1800 to 2700 plus KTS storage will yield very effect transportation of both Population and Units.

The total amount of population transported depends on the total number SL Pop LS Modules, as Alneyan indicates for Starliners, a mix of basic life support will be cheaper in Organics; however, the total Pop Load will be lower. Your LS mix will depend on your intended SL use.

(The se4 familiar Transports with the appropriate cargo techs) for Pop migrations are both fast and overall; more expensive then the AIC Star liner

= = = =

AS Oleg points out in his above post, the sole reason for the somewhat unorthodox AIC Star Liner format is so the Human player may NOT inevitably build intimidation points thru non-military vessels. The se4 AI counts all the ship and base displacements etc in the total points. Please note: 600kts+ Transports and 499kts+ Colony Ships each can and will be assumed by the se4 AI to be Cruisers or in some combinations even Huge Star Bases.

By lowering the most logical transport displacements and maintaining the storage integrity we may still have very many (1000 mass scaled) Starliners at less overall effects. AIC can deliver (to a point) a defined diplomacy between the Human and AI players: That is to say Military and other pertinent strengths will be measured against each opposing factions

[ May 02, 2004, 20:05: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Grand Lord Vito]

Originally posted by Yimboli:
Hello!

AIC Question - my starliners, colonizers, and transports get a max of about 2-4 movement. What is to stop me from just using destroyers with full movement? If nothing, then what is the point of giving the transports and colonizers just a QN handicap?

Nebulas/Storms that block scanners - what level of scanner do you need to see in nebulas and storms that say "This storm is opaque to most scanners"? Is it feasible to put a single satellite somewhere in the system with a X level scanner to see inside it? Also, if my ship enters a sector that also has an enemy ship, will my ships see it and engage?

These should be easy questions

Thanks
-Tim

Hi Yimboli
Yes Temporal and the generic Scanners work great in the Nebulas and small storms. Also keep in mind that the AIC warp points and small storms are also great places for the enemy to hide on the Human Player but this is not true with the AI because the AI Players can spot you eventually I know its not at the start of the game but they should see your scouts hidding in the small storms in a few hundred turns or so.

I noticed they answered your AIC star liner questions in the long run SLs are way cheaper then Medium Transports.

[ May 02, 2004, 21:25: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
Yes Temporal and the generic Scanners work great in the Nebulas and small storms. Also keep in mind that the AIC warp points and small storms are also great places for the enemy to hide on the Human Player but this is not true with the AI because the AI Players can spot you eventually I know its not at the start of the game but they should see your scouts hidding in the small storms in a few hundred turns or so.

I noticed they answered your AIC star liner questions in the long run SLs are way cheaper then Medium Transports.

Sensors are installed inherently on the AI Players Satellites skin, so that anomalistic Warp Points whether that passage be a Nebula or an Anomaly, the owning AI Players defensively placed platforms will be effective...

With respect to the (non Temporal or Psychic) AI Players Ship Scanning options: The abilities are nil for about the first quarter of the game. Then that ability will improve progressively as the game continues.
This is to address large Human Fleets seeking cover within Nebulas or any anomalistic sector whether this be a localized Strom within the AI Home System or a Warp Point void of AI Satellites.

Also please note: The Human and AI Player Cloaking procedures to disguise that vessel is not overly diminished with the above AIC current format and Cloaking is still very effective on AI Fleets not equipped with the standard applicable Sensor component

[Yimboli]

thax alot guys, youve helped alot. actually i just got back into moo3 so my questions will cease for a while now

-Tim

[QBrigid]

Originally posted by JLS:
Based on the 1000 mass game scale that both AIC and Proportions utilizes:

Freighters (Small Starliners) When the Population LS Module is not used as to save Organics will make a fine (slow but effective) unit Transport with over 900kts Storage.

(Starliners both medium and large) have 1800 to 2700 plus KTS storage will yield very effect transportation of both Population and Units.

The total amount of population transported depends on the total number SL Pop LS Modules, as Alneyan indicates for Starliners, a mix of basic life support will be cheaper in Organics; however, the total Pop Load will be lower. Your LS mix will depend on your intended SL use.

(The se4 familiar Transports with the appropriate cargo techs) for Pop migrations are both fast and overall; more expensive then the AIC Star liner

= = = =

AS Oleg points out in his above post, the sole reason for the somewhat unorthodox AIC Star Liner format is so the Human player may NOT inevitably build intimidation points thru non-military vessels. The se4 AI counts all the ship and base displacements etc in the total points. Please note: 600kts+ Transports and 499kts+ Colony Ships each can and will be assumed by the se4 AI to be Cruisers or in some combinations even Huge Star Bases.

By lowering the most logical transport displacements and maintaining the storage integrity we may still have very many (1000 mass scaled) Starliners at less overall effects. AIC can deliver (to a point) a defined diplomacy between the Human and AI players: That is to say Military and other pertinent strengths will be measured against each opposing factions

What does this mean?

"Based on the 1000 mass game scale that both AIC and Proportions utilizes:"

[QBrigid]

Originally posted by Yimboli:
thax alot guys, youve helped alot. actually i just got back into moo3 so my questions will cease for a while now

-Tim

I played moo3, that is a game that is totally not working loss of 30+ bucks. Did they post release patch it to make it even a little playable

AIC AI is tough on me, I still play low AI bonus and I am not a newbe.

TDM is the best MOD in se4 land for your first MOD to dive into. The AI is up-to-date and the there is no changes from the original se4 concepts.

[ May 05, 2004, 19:47: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by QBrigid:
... What does this mean?

"Based on the 1000 mass game scale that both AIC and Proportions utilizes:"

It refers to each population unit having a mass of 1000 kT.

PvK