The most complex game?

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani:
Originally posted by Lord Hammer:

quote:

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EU2 and HOI and company are by far TOO complex to get any enjoyment out of IMHO

Really? From the little I played of EU2 it seemed quite simple with only three unit types and few technologies that did much.

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Ah, but the diplomacy in EUII (or more exactly the "do not piss off the AIs or they'll all gang up on me" syndrom) is very complex. And while there are only 3 army types, their effectivness in battle depends on a whole lot of factors, so the tactics stay very complex.

[Saxon]

EU2 seems simple at first, but it keeps getting more and more complicated. The documentation is good, but not specific. As such, you have a lot of work to figure out how things like ethnicity and religion interact. It often makes political, economic and religious sense to reduce the size of your kingdom! Try finding another games where you have to give back conquests and where bigger is not better. It is almost like the Sims in that your goals are very unusual, it is more the playing that matters than the end goals, it is a strategy game, not at 4X game. It is a very, very complex game and as a player, you have fairly blunt tools to make changes. This is perfect, it is just like the Kings of the time faced. There are lots of reports available, but they only give you some information, you have to do a lot of thinking.

I agree with Lord Hammer, it is pretty heavy going sometimes. I have to be in the mood to work at a game to play EU2 and I have to know my history for things to make sense. Dominions also requires a lot of thought, but not the same high level and historical back ground. I can almost always play Dominions, EU2 is a once in a while when I have a Saturday free and feel like working.

[Bossemanden]

Documentation for EU2 is rotten. The reason being primarily (but not exclusively) that it has been patched so heavily as to make a different (and much better) game.
I like Dominions II very much, but my all time favorite is still EU2 by far (with Victoria second).

Edit: I find EU2 and Dominions to be approximately equally complex, but in very different ways. HOI is possibly a bit more complex and Victoria quite a bit more (maybe a little too much).

[ January 09, 2004, 09:56: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

[Keir Maxwell]

For me the comlexity in dom is in large part the vast amount of approaches to playing - each with their own learning curve. For me there are always so many new things to learn. By combining enough well thought out elements the game produces possiblites which I imagine the creators never thought of but which emerge out of the logic they have created.

Complexity 10

cheers

Keir

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes I love that I suspect these guys threw some things in that were "I dont know what the Users would use this for but what the heck its easy to add". As a hacker type I like that. Im still learning things and Ive been playing Dom1/Dom2 since Sept of 2001

[aldin]

Yes, I'm a bit of a Trek nerd, but Dominions complexity is of the IDIC type - Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. There are just so many different ways to accomplish things. I love to browse the manual looking for a spell or item (or province defense, or bless effect, or scale) to spark a new idea of how to do something.

~Aldin

[Taqwus]

Keeping friends in SMAC was mostly a matter of bribing, just like in Civ II; the AIs in fact always knew what tech and money you had so that they could ask for particular techs or particular fractions of your money. Bizarre, silly, and stupid when the AI was in no position to make demands, or when it'd fare better continuing economic development than war. In both Civ II and SMAC, extermination frequently seemed the best way of dealing with the inane flood of demands and provocations...
SE IV was quite complex WRT ship design; it arguably rivals MOO2 in that regard. While it lacks, say, the assorted weirdness of the 'SPECIAL' components, there are enough components and they're balanced well enough that there's no "ultimate" ship design. You don't, say, have a situation where everybody builds high-powered beamers and the side which shoots first completely annihilates the enemy fleet in one salvo. Damage is more important because repair takes time and components get trashed, supply matters, beams don't always hit (for *most* ships, heh... Religious Talisman of Targeting, anyone?) and what ships could do varied more (like open warp points, drop mines, drop off troops /during/ combat, etc). Interesting. The same complexity and modability makes it hard for the AIs to deal with, however.

[Thilock_Dominus]

The complexity is a word that covers alot and is diffrent if you ask diffrent people. Lots of games have complexity of its own. Like Morrowind its complexity lies in it's neverending and the MW editor. Other games also have the 'unique' touch of complexity it's all about which eye who sees it. A child would say Mario Brothers are complex while an adult hard core roleplayer would think otherwise.

with best regards
Thilock_Dominus

[PvK]

True. Complexity is a very subjective and mutable term.

However, some other nicely complex games (of completely different genres - some might argue these are simulations rather than games, but they are also games), which are also some of my Favorites:

Point of Attack 2 (HPS Simulations)
Tigers on the Prowl series (HPS Simulations)
Combat Mission (see Battlefront.com)
Panzer Elite (Wings Simulations)
Falcon 4 (MicroProse)

Point of Attack 2 definites comes to mind when I think of the most complex game.

PvK

[Lord Hammer]

Originally posted by PvK:
True. Complexity is a very subjective and mutable term.Point of Attack 2 definites comes to mind when I think of the most complex game.
PvK

Decisive Action (HPS), now that's another one ...aren't games supposed to be fun? .