Winning w/o a SC???

[Torlin HalfAxe]

Thanks for the insight, Norfleet, I was hoping you would reply after reading your other Posts here.

Ulm definitely fits the bill you're looking for. Unfortunately, Ulm happens to be somewhat weak against Jotunheim, as giants are strong enough to crush you in your heavy armor like a coke can.

Exactly what I am anticipating! So what is the best tactic against the big brutes? I'm hoping massed missle fire will have *some* effect on the oafs. Any thoughts on Ulm vs. Jotun?

[HJ]

If you're talking abut SP, you'll have little to worry about from Jotuns usually. They require a lot of supplies, and the AI is somewhat lacking in handling that. If you play a decent size map, chances are that most of them apart from those guarding the capital are going to be diseased by the time you reach them.

Other than that, try to swarm them with superior numbers. They'll win a 1 on 1 fights against most troops, but if you have superior numbers it means that you'll be able to get many attacks per single giant in a round, and their defense drops down with each subsequent attack. Since only one giant can fit into a square, you'll get something like 3 attacks per his one (3 humans fit in the square), and some of those attacks will land. Their size also means that missiles are more likely to hit them if they hit the square they're in. In other words, they hit hard, but are also relatively easy to hit. This is of course just a basic strategy without any magic or anything sophisticated, but it still works nevertheless.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
Thanks for the insight, Norfleet, I was hoping you would reply after reading your other Posts here.

Don't get too eager to hear from me. I'm as likely to say something snarky as I am to actually say anything helpful.

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
Exactly what I am anticipating! So what is the best tactic against the big brutes? I'm hoping massed missle fire will have *some* effect on the oafs. Any thoughts on Ulm vs. Jotun?

If you mass crossbows, that'll definitely take some of the wind out of their sails, but they move fast, and crossbows fire slowly. You'll need something to slow them down, something that won't be crushed like a tin can too quickly....or something expendable, because many of them are going to likely get shot in the back by your own crossbows.

[ June 22, 2004, 21:46: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[HotNifeThruButr]

From the way you describe them, HalfAxe, with words like "big" and "fat" and "oaf", it sounds like you consider them slow. But Jotun are actually very fast for infantry units. Long legs means long strides.

I think their main weakness lies in attack Ratings, which, even for the elite Jotun Hirdmen, are only 10-12. Cavalry, which tend to have really good Def skills, like Royal Guard, Centaur Warriors, Knights, Black Knights (I have doubts about Knights of Ulm, whatever you call 'em. Don't play Ulm much), Knights of Avalon and Van often pose a problem for my ice giants.

Another very good way of combatting giants, as long as they're not using a Woodsman or Huskarl dependant army, is to bring out the heaviest weapons available and the burliest men. I'm not a big fan of ranged combat, but if you absolutely want it, Crossbows and Arbalests can punch through the giants' Chain Mail Hauberks like pudding if they manage to hit in the first place. I think good anti-giant infantry are

Imperial Footmen with glaives, the infantry of the people! Celestial Soldiers and Demons of Heavenly Rivers work well too, I mean, what CAN'T they do?

Machaka Hoplites, but that's kind of a stretch

Elemental demons, all nice and strong if I remember right. The Devil gets the added bonus of having a fork. They'll provide all the punch you need for Abysia and Mictlan.

Slave/Elite Warriors, once again, forks

R'lyeh slave... I dunno, were they Guardians? Forks, but consider Lobo with Illithids. The Lobo policy of quantity vs. quality does well against Jotunheim as tanks while Illithids can bLast away

I've never actually used Barbarians or Lizard Warriors, but I guess they'll do in a pinch.

Marignon Halberdiers and Swordsmen, (see Celestial Soldiers and Demon of Heavenly Rivers)

Maybe Skinshifters, I've never been in a Van vs Jotun situation. I'm sure Einheres would get a strength bonus once they berserk, but they probably won't survive the first hit by a giant.

I don't think Pythium has any reliable response to Jotunheim. Their best bet would probably be the Hydra.

Atlantian War Shamblers are good, theoretically, but I haven't used them much.

Ulm has infantry with two handed weapons, which generally pack a very satisfying punch. Black Woods Rangers would probably work well too, their high prec is good news, as are their axes instead of short swords in close combat.

I don't play Caelum much, but with them, I would probably depend on the Mammoth, same with Arcosephalean elephants.

With Man, I would place my bet on Wardens, but you're probably better off taking advantage of the giants' poor attack skill and use Knights/Knights of Avalon.

Ermor... relax, the giants'll have a hard time getting anywhere near you with your death domain. Now go grab some ice cream or some undead wenches.

With Pangaea, even though minotaurs carry a big axe, you don't want them anywhere near giants. Better to take advantage of the giants' poor attack skill (deja vu) and use Centaur Warriors.

Am I forgetting any nation?

Edit: For the SC question, that's the current imbalance, or shall I say "cheese" in this game. Someone's already said fliers, and I find that they work the best. Even fielding your own SC is risky, at best.

Edit2: In response to the first post. Dwarves use guerilla tactics? Maybe I'm thinking of different dwarves, or you're thinking of the normal fantasy elf. But aside from that, guerilla tactics are horrible. Whenever you retreat, even on purpose, your units end up scattered in all the neighboring provinces, or die when they retreat into an enemy one.

Edit3: God bless Norfleet... he'll need it.

[ June 23, 2004, 06:24: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Edit2: In response to the first post. Dwarves use gorilla tactics?

Well, gorilla tactics differ greatly from guerrilla tactics. Gorilla tactics involve beating your chest, screaming, and flinging doody in an attempt to intimidate your foes, whereas guerrilla tactics involve hit and run actions. I could see dwarves perhaps attempting to use gorilla tactics.

[ June 23, 2004, 06:06: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Huzurdaddi]

I don't think Pythium has any reliable response to Jotunheim. Their best bet would probably be the Hydra.

You don't like the principe? *sniff* but they are so cute.

[Torlin HalfAxe]

From the way you describe them, HalfAxe, with words like "big" and "fat" and "oaf", it sounds like you consider them slow. But Jotun are actually very fast for infantry units. Long legs means long strides.

I was not describing their in-game fighting prowess at all, HotNife, I was merely describing giants in general. My apologies for the confusion.

In response to the first post. Dwarves use guerilla tactics? Maybe I'm thinking of different dwarves, or you're thinking of the normal fantasy elf. But aside from that, guerilla tactics are horrible. Whenever you retreat, even on purpose, your units end up scattered in all the neighboring provinces, or die when they retreat into an enemy one.

Guerilla tactics don't necessarily mean retreating, HotNife. If you want to "sum up" the tactic in a few sentences, which I find very difficult to do, I would say something like this:

Guerilla tactics are about conciously not meeting the enemy head on. You know you would lose the battle that way, so you choose not to fight in this fashion.

I'll go around your main armies, run through your territory while you're trying to get in mine, surround you with smaller Groups to cut off your supply, etc.

The point is not to meet your big, strong, oafy(did I just say "oafy"? yikes lol), giants face to face, where I would promptly get stomped. I'll prick your supplies and threaten your rear until you attempt to do something about it.

In addition, my copy of the game isn't even here yet, I'm just throwing out options and seeing if they would hold any weight before I start the game. Most of you have been very helpful, and I'm very excited at the possibilities for this title.

Thanks again for the insight!

[ June 23, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Torlin HalfAxe ]

[PvK]

My thinking (and my interpretation of my experience) is nearly the opposite from HotNifeThruButr's suggested good troops against Jotun giants.

Giants with giant weapons tend to kill human-sized targets when they hit them. Even men in Ulmish armor with shields. Even mounted knights and heroes with several typical magic items. Once they get hit, they tend to die. Armor can actually be a disadvantage, because it reduces defense, making it more likely to get hit and killed.

Also, heavy armor is expensive in resources. You're wasting a lot of build time (resources) by sending it to get squashed by giants. Giants like armored targets, since they are easier to hit, not much harder to kill with one hit, and are crunchy. Meanwhile, they are more valuable for use against many other types, and take a long time to build, so they shouldn't be used, or at least, not overly used.

Better to use troops with higher defense and as little cost and utility to you in other situations, as possible. Ideal would be something like masses of Hoburg Acrobats, jumping around yelling, "Hahoo! Hahoo! Can't hit me!" They will get hit anyway, but the point is to tire them out and keep them away from the units that are attacking the giants (ranged, mages, and/or a light mix of some well-armed melee units)

I found Tribals (8 gold, 2 resources) worked well. Yes they died a lot, but I didn't really want them alive and on the payroll anyway. I wanted them to keep the Jotuns busy long enough for others to kill them.

PvK

[HotNifeThruButr]

To PvK: you might have misinterpreted my strategy.

1. Knights, although they're heavily armored, also have high defense skills, around 16-20 if I remember right. They can consistently dodge the Jotuns' attacks while their own blows are almost guaranteed to hit. Knights are also stronger than normal men, and their lances are a big bonus.

2. When I say men with heavy weapons are good, I don't mean heavy weapons AND ARMOR. If barbarians didn't have such crap morale, they'd be perfect against Jotunheim, whereas the expensive Zweihander, while also having a huge weapon, would suck, because you can field less of them and they won't survive any longer.

To Torlin: Guerilla does mean retreating, in this game. You can only tell them to retreat, stand and fight, or fire then retreat. Either way, they either fight and die or run away. It's not an RTS, you don't have direct command over anyone. Also, there are no supply lines in this game to cut off. The only benefit you get from surrounding someone totally is that they die when they retreat. All Jotun units have two strategic move, which is huge for anyone with 13+ protection from armor. They can and will catch any of your guerillas, probably except if you were Caelum, but I don't play the birds a lot.

To Huzurdaddi: Satyr are cuter

Edit: Think "Zergling" instead of "Zealot"

[ June 23, 2004, 21:35: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

[PvK]

HotNifeThruButr, I agree with your latest post, except that knights are expensive and so often not a necessary risk. They can defeat giants, but still tend to get killed when they are hit by giants, so it's better if you can avoid that. I would try to engage first with cannon fodder, and follow up with the knights, but the times when I did use knights, I ended up regretting I had, because some of them got hit and died, while the battles I fought without them, I still won if I had enough cannon fodder and something safer to hit the giants with.

In your previous post, though, I wouldn't use your unit choices:

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
... I think good anti-giant infantry are

Imperial Footmen with glaives, the infantry of the people! Celestial Soldiers and Demons of Heavenly Rivers work well too, I mean, what CAN'T they do?

What Celestial summons can't do is be replaced easily if they get hit by too many giant weapons.

I don't think Imperial Footmen are as good a choice as ordinary footmen, because they are more expensive and take more resources for their armor, which mainly just slows them down from getting out of the way of that GIANT AXE - oh no!!! Ordinary glaive footmen might be a reasonable choice, though.

Machaka Hoplites, but that's kind of a stretch

Exactly my point. Like other good HI, these are great against many units but are juicy/crunchy targets for giants. The Machakan spear and bow fodder, on the other hand, will keep the giants about as busy as the hoplites will, but can be churned out in massive numbers quite quickly, and you actually hope they'll mostly die off by the time your giant problem is over, because against many other types, they aren't worth their keep.

Elemental demons, all nice and strong if I remember right. The Devil gets the added bonus of having a fork. They'll provide all the punch you need for Abysia and Mictlan.

Meeting force with force. Might be effective, but perhaps not efficient, since they can hire giants probably more easily than you can summon these guys. And even if you can match their giants with demons, I'd expect it would be better to take care of them mainly with cheap-o units, and use those demons against something else.
As Mictlan, again I'd tend to use the chaff light units and slaves to keep the giants busy and overwhelmed by numbers, while picking them off with magic, indy archers, etc.

...
I've never actually used Barbarians or Lizard Warriors, but I guess they'll do in a pinch.

Yes, though I would use a mixture of 1/3 to 1/5 of these costly heavy-hitters, and the rest the cheapest available chaff.

Marignon Halberdiers and Swordsmen, (see Celestial Soldiers and Demon of Heavenly Rivers)

I'm not very familiar with those, but they might be ok as the 1/3 to 1/5 heavy hitters amongst the fodder.

Maybe Skinshifters, I've never been in a Van vs Jotun situation. I'm sure Einheres would get a strength bonus once they berserk, but they probably won't survive the first hit by a giant.

Expensive and fragile choices. Not worth risking against giants, except maybe some green ones in small numbers amongst many other chaff. Again, I'd pick the cheapest units available.

I don't think Pythium has any reliable response to Jotunheim. Their best bet would probably be the Hydra.

Pythium has fodder, I think. There's no real reason to use special national fodder though, if you have indy fodder. Add a castle with Admin to a Tribal province and it can provide enough fodder to keep a lot of giants busy.

Atlantian War Shamblers are good, theoretically, but I haven't used them much.

Yes but not against giants. Expensive and hardy... but only hardy enough to be a juicy target for giant weapons.

Ulm has infantry with two handed weapons, which generally pack a very satisfying punch. ...

They have these, yes, but they come with heavy armor which is useful against troops whose weapons it has an effect on. Big waste to use them against giants, except maybe as the hard-hitting minority. Even still, I'd only send a few green ones in, since there will be casualties.

I don't play Caelum much, but with them, I would probably depend on the Mammoth, same with Arcosephalean elephants.

Sounds like force-on-force, and though I don't Caelum much either, Arco elephants are expensive. Moreso than Jotun giants by a long shot, and they are probably too big for giants to trample anyway, so I expect they'd be an awful choice. I'd use Peltasts and/or Cardaces.

With Man, I would place my bet on Wardens, but you're probably better off taking advantage of the giants' poor attack skill and use Knights/Knights of Avalon.

Wardens and other elite armored types are expensive and will get squished. They might be somewhat effective, but won't be efficient to lose, I expect.

Ermor... relax, the giants'll have a hard time getting anywhere near you with your death domain. Now go grab some ice cream or some undead wenches.

Ya and in theory, hordes of low-HP undead are the perfect thing to deal with giants, as long as they don't have a good thing to deal with your undead.

With Pangaea, even though minotaurs carry a big axe, you don't want them anywhere near giants. Better to take advantage of the giants' poor attack skill (deja vu) and use Centaur Warriors.

No, again, I think Centaur warriors would be way too expensive to put in the way of giant weapons. I'd use Satyrs and Maenads!

PvK

[ June 23, 2004, 22:51: Message edited by: PvK ]