Petition to Save the Moloch!

[Molog]

The moloch isn't the only pretender getting combat summons. At least the imps are somewhat useful, lord of the gates get 3 shades.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Molog:
The moloch isn't the only pretender getting combat summons. At least the imps are somewhat useful, lord of the gates get 3 shades.

Well, yes, there are a few others, but none of them suffer the problem as severely as the Moloch: The Moloch's Imps *FLY*, which means that they IMMEDIATELY get in the face of the enemy and rout the next turn, before the Moloch can even finish casting his spells. This means the Moloch will practically never be able to outrun them, and the Imps are weak and cowardly and rout quickly. The Shades move more slowly and have better morale.

Also, the Lord of the Gates sucks, and isn't really that cool-looking to boot, so nobody uses him when the Prince of Death can do the same thing with better magic for the same cost. He has the same problem, but nobody really wants him, so it's not a big issue.

[Truper]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Truper:
All the Moloch's Imps mean is that you have to use him a little differently than some other pretenders.

If, by "differently", you mean "is nearly useless as an SC", then yeah: He can still be used for his cheap Fire-9 blessing, but an otherwise valid use as suggested by his blurb text is ruled out. As such, he can be used exactly like any other pretender in every other use except being used as an SC, a role in which he is nearly completely useless.

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You can still use him as a SC - just not in the "Lone Ranger" mode in which he and his Imps would be the only friendly units on the battlefield. Use him in support of other friendly forces, or work around the problem by sticking some units at the back of the battleboard with hold orders. The role in which I think he could truly excel is as an anti-SC, since he has, iirc, the highest inherent attack skill of any pretender.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Truper:
You can still use him as a SC - just not in the "Lone Ranger" mode in which he and his Imps would be the only friendly units on the battlefield. Use him in support of other friendly forces, or work around the problem by sticking some units at the back of the battleboard with hold orders.

This will then cripple his strategic mobility, since he'll be limited to attacking only adjacent provinces: There aren't very many flying units that won't rush into the battle (and then die). I think the only ones that come to mind are Storm Demons and Caelumian archers. This severely limits your options.

The role in which I think he could truly excel is as an anti-SC, since he has, iirc, the highest inherent attack skill of any pretender.

He can fight reasonably well if you can do something about his cowardice. This involves having to saddle him with troops that may not be able to be adequately protected from battlefield nastiness, and probably encumber his strategic move to a level that makes difficult to keep up with more mobile SCs, or sacrificing an item slot to collar him. Alone, however, his imps are liable to kill themselves quickly and rout him again.

Yes, it's entirely possible to have him accompany an army, but then you've largely defeated the point of having what would otherwise be a high-class SC chassis and reduced him to the level of artillery support. Certainly he does this well at the moment, since the only reason to take him at all is for the Fire-9 bless, but as an SC chassis, he's of very questionable worth at present.

[Daynarr]

Just because you don't know how to use him doesn't mean he can't be used as SC.

And, btw, he has far better combats stats then LoD. Unless you don’t consider 20 vs. 15 attack (not counting fire bonus), fire immunity, ambidexterity and fire magic (which is far better in combat then death) an advantage. The only combat advantage that LoD has is better fear. Take out imps and you will get and UBER pretender with BEST combat stats in game that EVERYONE will use.

[Vynd]

I'd like to see the Imps removed. If the Moloch is too strong without the Imps, then take away the Imps and make him weaker as well. But it's just weird to have him handicapped by something that is supposed to be an advantage. Weird and confusing.

As for the idea of using a mod that removes the Imps, that's only really practical if you're playing with a group of friends. I pretty much just play in games that get started on this forum. What am I supposed to do? Say, "I'll join as Ulm. Here are the mods I expect everyone to use."

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
The only combat advantage that LoD has is better fear. Take out imps and you will get and UBER pretender with BEST combat stats in game that EVERYONE will use.

The prince of death also has the advantage that he has has an encumbrance of 0, which is extremely useful, and allows him to wear any piece of armour that he could ever want.

The Moloch didn't generate Imps in Dominions 1, there he actually had a command to summon devils, and he really wasn't that overpowered. He also is currently just a bit beefier Version of an archdevil.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
And, btw, he has far better combats stats then LoD. Unless you don’t consider 20 vs. 15 attack (not counting fire bonus), fire immunity, ambidexterity and fire magic (which is far better in combat then death) an advantage.

These certainly account for his 25 extra points in cost, but Imps make this little edge useless, since all you have to do is kill the stupid imps, and they practically beg for it, flinging themselves into the enemy like that, and the Moloch is gone, possibly dead, if you planned it.

As for Fire Magic being better in combat than Death, that's debatable. Fire has Phoenix Pyre and Fire Shield, which are certainly neat...but Death has Soul Vortex, which allows the aspiring SC to both damage his enemies in a radius, and alleviate the need for a lifestealing weapon.

Fire certainly has excellent artillery spells, but this is useless for an SC, unless your intent is to use the Moloch as an artillery caster, which is something he can do well, but makes his combat stats mostly irrelevant in that case. Besides, Death has Drain Life. The PoD set for drain life/summon chaff will be far more effective as an anti-SC duellist than the Moloch will.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Fire certainly has excellent artillery spells, but this is useless for an SC, unless your intent is to use the Moloch as an artillery caster, which is something he can do well, but makes his combat stats mostly irrelevant in that case.

Well, with fire 9, he can do both, thanks to the huge fatigue reductions he will experience. Try Phoenix Pyre, Heat from Hell, Firestorm, Flame Storm, Flame Storm, attack. Admittedly, he may go unconscious at some point, but all you need there is someone to cast relief or for a lifestealing target to show up close to him.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Well, with fire 9, he can do both, thanks to the huge fatigue reductions he will experience. Try Phoenix Pyre, Heat from Hell, Firestorm, Flame Storm, Flame Storm, attack. Admittedly, he may go unconscious at some point, but all you need there is someone to cast relief or for a lifestealing target to show up close to him.

Yes, once you have relief, if you feel like towing a little flying minion to relief you, that's always an option, but a mage in the back won't solve your imp problem, and the troops that can both keep up with the Moloch in flight and not be annihilated by this kind of abusive behavior tends to be limited to Devils and Iron Dragons. Or maybe some more imps leftover from an HfH.

No one's arguing that the Moloch makes a fine devil commander, though. Hmm....

You know, the Lord of the Night doesn't rout which his fiends bite it. I wonder if the Moloch would still rout if he were commanding devils, the Imps died first, and then the devils died?

[ July 06, 2004, 03:39: Message edited by: Norfleet ]