New Cold War 2020 mod version available!

[RVPERTVS]

They don´t sound bad...they just sound diferent!

I´ve been testing this PDW on armour, soft and infantry and I feel it a little weak to my taste, it´s even weaker than the AC, can a laser do better? Good new AC sound btw.

Been messing around with "Forest Encounter" and I like it so far, it should be a introductory scenario or something, I think it suits you well to explore in a coffe break what the mod is about, leaving you wanting more of course .

Considering I been playing as the ruskies 90% of the time,but I was unsatisfied with the USA vs USSR late time equipement disparity in 3.5, taking also into consideration that CW is my favorite scenario, I´m having good time with this one

Regadrs
Robert

[Suhiir]

Hey Plasma, have a question regarding the Formations and Pick Lists.

I know in the Units tab you can't move or change the actual units without destroying the ability to play existing scenarios with a revised OOB (i.e. An infantry squad in slot #360 MUST remain infantry squad, you can fiddle with the availability dates a bit as long as you're careful not to wind up with M16's in 1951).

I also know the Pick Lists use the information in the Formations tab to decide what to buy for a given battle on X date.

If one already knows they'll have to create a new Pick List for their revised OOB does the actual type and/or order of the formations in the Formation tab matter ?

As I understand it the data in the Formations tab is used only by the Pick Lists when the AI purchases units for a battle, and NEVER by an existing scenario.

So can I totally revise the type and order of the formations in the Formations tab, as long as I provide a new Pick List, without causing problems to existing scenarios ?
Is the slot number sequence in the Formations tab used in any way by the AI to determine what formation to purchase ?
Example : Do infantry platoons have to remain in slots #90, #93, #94, and #95 in the Formations tab or could they be moved to slots #600 thru #603 as long as the the company level formations point to them and the Pick Lists are revised ?

[PlasmaKrab]

Let me see if I get it right:

1)OOB formations are not used in scenarios.
2)Editing picklists, you can replace anything with anything at your own risk, but without major bugs as far as I can tell. So where is every single formation in the formation list doesn't matter except for a few critical ones like the HQ.
In different picklists I have had infantry companies numbered 4, 6, 7, 31, 33, 37, 43, 98, 281, 437 and anything else, infantry cos replaced by commando platoons or mechanized formations and reverse...
It doesn't matter as long as you don't mind messing up the OOB and the picklists.

[Suhiir]

PlasmaKrab said:
Let me see if I get it right:

1)OOB formations are not used in scenarios.
2)Editing picklists, you can replace anything with anything at your own risk, but without major bugs as far as I can tell. So where is every single formation in the formation list doesn't matter except for a few critical ones like the HQ.
In different picklists I have had infantry companies numbered 4, 6, 7, 31, 33, 37, 43, 98, 281, 437 and anything else, infantry cos replaced by commando platoons or mechanized formations and reverse...
It doesn't matter as long as you don't mind messing up the OOB and the picklists.

1) So you're confirming that OOB Formations are NOT used by scenarios ?
2) Which, besides the HQ are "critical" ?
I assume barges, rafts, crews - any others ?

Yeah, I know you need to be careful with the formations and picklists, I'm just trying to figure out the "must" and "must not" for them, I know you've worked with them quite a bit on your project so rather then re-invent the wheel I thought I'd ask.

Thanks !

[Mobhack]

Scenarios don't use the OOB formations - as these have been chosen in the scenario editor when you bought the toys in the first place. OOB formation data is only relevant in a purchase situation (human or AI).

As to AI pick lists - see the link where these were discussed in the file attached here but remember that playing with these is a real "black art" - and true hacker work as that is all I'm going to publish on the subject (no help etc).

But the MBT AI pick lists are variable, on both date and also can be variable on opponent as well (so a simple investigation that USA uses inf co No 123 (without the inf-ATGM say) in the pick may only be good for say, 1966-84 and when playing the VC, but not if playing the USSR!). And there are usually up to 3 alternate leg infantry, tank, and mech inf platoons and companies, determined on %age chance plus remaining buy points available.

barges (carried in barge carrier and used for beach), barge carriers (river xing), HQ (both unit and formation No. 0!), crews, assault raft (carried by grunts in the river xing) are fixed in OOBs as is the 1000lb bomb weapon slot (for secondary explosions on ammo dumps), as discussed somewhere in the mobhack help.

Naval artillery (used in beach landings) - uses a set contiguous list of batteries (or mortar sections or field arty which will be carried in barges for some armies which don't really have a navy, but you must provide "cover" units for the situation where an end user decides to beach assault with the Swiss, say..), as laid out in the appropriate section of the AI pick list data files. Stamping all over the naval gunfire support formations will do weird things for the AI beach assaulter!.

An OOB designed for human usage only can generally ignore most of the limits (and entirely ignore the AI pick list), but be prepared for some end user who never ever read your never-read-me to complain when he tries to use your human-only OOB as an AI opponent..

The simplest way to edit an OOB and leave the AI pick alone is to leave any existing formation alone or to make sure that it remains the same sort of thing (a tank platoon say), but you can edit the detail (3 tanks instead of 4, or rearrange the infantry types in a rifle platoon or the make-up of a recce company perhaps). You could extend the availability dates for an existing formation (back or forward) but it must still be available at the original date range for the AI pick to utilise it.

And finally - although you can swap the OOBS in and out with the oob swapper utility, the pick list is not swapped. It is a global game data item. Therefore any massive rework (especially including edited AI pick lists) is probably best installed to a it's own entirely separate game instance, with the scenarios and campaigns cleared out & replaced with some that use your database only. The only alternative should you try to have these co-existing with the stock set is really to provide a zip of a) your edited pick and b} the stock pick and instruct the end users to remeber to unzip the appropriate one when swapping OOB sets as well in the never-read-me file. Unfortunately - you would probably need to issue a new "b" set on each game release as we will not be keeping the stock AI pickset in synch with any third-party efforts!. So, for a massive mod - I would suggest a separate game install of its own.

Cheers
Andy

[Suhiir]

Many thanks Andy !

I've read your AI pick lists discussion and realize it will be a lot of "fun" to create a new one and swap it in/out. One reason I'm leaving it for last in my rework ,beyond the practical consideration that I need to finish the units and formations before I can even start on it.

Yeah, I've noticed the pick lists vary with opponent. A very nice way to deal with certain issues (inf-ATGM's as you noted).
Were I to get truly ambitious is there any limit on how many pick list variations one can build in?
I.E. One each for assault missions vs armor heavy, light, and rare opponents; one for defense vs the same.

Mobhack said:barges (carried in barge carrier and used for beach), barge carriers (river xing), HQ (both unit and formation No. 0!), crews, assault raft (carried by grunts in the river xing) are fixed in OOBs as is the 1000lb bomb weapon slot (for secondary explosions on ammo dumps), as discussed somewhere in the mobhack help.

Naval artillery (used in beach landings) - uses a set contiguous list of batteries (or mortar sections or field arty which will be carried in barges for some armies which don't really have a navy, but you must provide "cover" units for the situation where an end user decides to beach assault with the Swiss, say..), as laid out in the appropriate section of the AI pick list data files. Stamping all over the naval gunfire support formations will do weird things for the AI beach assaulter!.

Andy

I'm aware that these units must occupy their fixed positions in the OOB. Question is, are HQ and naval artillery the ONLY things that must occupy fixed slots in the formations ? Nothing I've read seems to indicate, with any certainty, that other then the HQ in slot 0 and naval guns in a contiguous list, anything else must occupy a fixed position in the formations.


Yeah, I know the folks that don't read the "Read Me" will scream
Not much one can do about that but shake your head and try to figure out a polite way to suggest they learn to read.


Would that I could leave the existing formations alone and thus avoid the whole pick lists problem.

But I'm at the point in my rework where some new formations are necessary, and yes I could (and in all probability should) just add them to the current formations, trouble is availability dates. The changes I need to do will make it impossible to use the current pick list.
I need to modify these quite a bit due to changes in the Tables of Organization over time.
Also the main reason I started on this project was that SPMBT tends to provide administrative rather then combat formations and I got tired of having to spend hours with the editor adding "standard" support weapons to platoons, companies, and battalions.


So far I've been having a lot of "fun" trying not to screw up the units themselves. Because I want my OOB to be compatible with existing scenarios. Thus the unit type can't be changed (no real problem, lots of empty slots available in OOB #13 USMC), but I have to be VERY careful with changes to weapons. So far it seems that scenarios seem to store only the unit slot number, number of crew, and ammo load for each weapon slot in the unit, so any other changes will be picked up when the game program reads the unit data when one runs a scenario. Of course this means any weapon added to an empty unit weapon slot will have no ammo. But if you're trying to do something this extensive you have to expect to run into a few problems.


As much as I'd like rebuild to be a seamless replacement for the existing OOB . . . it ain't possible.
So my target audience is the "purists", "tech weenies", and "bean counters". These folks should have enough tech savvy to read the "Read Me", swap files as needed, and realize there WILL be some problems trying to use a revised OOB.
On the other hand they'll be able to play a battle or campaign with the USMC and have it "look" and "feel" like the USMC.

Once again, I want to assure you I'm in no way complaining about SPMBT in any way, shape, or form. I'm merely trying to circumvent certain inherent limitations as best I can.

[Mobhack]

As I said before- the only help on AI pick lists is what is written in the file attachment. Otherwise I would get dragged into micro-detail arguments with folk who half-understand things.

Yeah, I've noticed the pick lists vary with opponent. A very nice way to deal with certain issues (inf-ATGM's as you noted).
Were I to get truly ambitious is there any limit on how many pick list variations one can build in?
I.E. One each for assault missions vs armor heavy, light, and rare opponents; one for defense vs the same.

Read the text file, and you will see that force selection is based on OPFOR army ID number. It's section ID Number 1 (one) of the TXT file - opponent file!. And you also have example multiple AI pick list - pick 15 Australia, as an guide. Extra picks lead to extra main control files, as stated in section no 2 (again, see Australian pick file and spreadsheet, compare and contrast with the single AI pick example as required)).

Do not simply edit the dat files by hand - use the spreadsheet, copy the appropriate entire column of data and paste to the correct dat file, or you will come a cropper!.

As I said no more help, the AI pick list zip file is the only help provided.

Cheers
Andy

[Suhiir]

I fully understand you don't wish to discuss details of pick lists (for obvious reasons).

But . . .
Understood that it's based on OPFOR army ID number.
Understood that each requires a main control file.

My question was : Is there any limit to the number of OPFOR army ID's / time periods one can designate in the pick list ?
10, 20, 5000 ?

[Mobhack]

The opponent list has 1 (one) slot per OPFOR army number. You could assign pick 1 to army 1, 2 to army 2 etc, or the more usual (0=normal list, 1=3rd world/light forces list) to a multiple of enemies in the list.

Each sub pick list is on month and year - you could well do 1950-2020 on a month by month basis, and if required, by OPFOR. Limit would be the number of digits in file names (999 most likely, since I think I based it on NNN so 3 digits).

Basically - there is more granularity available than any sane person would require.

Cheers
Andy

[Suhiir]

Thank you once again !

I'll now (attempt) to shut up on the subject and allow you some well-earned peace.

You're implying my project is sane ?