M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns

[redcoat2]

British Names

I’ve long used the names ‘Wolverine’ and ‘Achilles’ when playing wargames – but I don’t think those names were actually used much during WW2 – if at all. Here are three different sources on the subject.

British Armour in the Normandy Campaign, 1944 by John D Buckley:

Some 1648 M10s were delivered to the British, where they were occasionally referred to as Wolverines and were deployed in Royal Artillery (RA) anti-tank units throughout the Normandy campaign. Most initially carried the three-inch gun, but the British began refitting their M10s with 17-pdrs. Such vehicles were supposedly titled Achilles, and sometimes rather confusingly Firefly, but as in the case of the nomenclature Wolverine, these names were not widely employed, M10 being the standard reference.

M10 and M36 Tank Destroyers 1942-53 by Steven J. Zaloga:

Over the years, a number of dubious names have been associated with the M10 and M36 tank destroyers. The M10 is sometimes referred to as the Wolverine, an unofficial nickname sometimes used in wartime Chrysler advertising. It was never used by the US Army. The British M10C 17-pdr. Was referred to in at least one post-war report as Achilles, but this name was never widely used by British forces. The M36 is sometimes referred to as the Jackson, but this appears to be an entirely specious, post-war invention. None of these names are used in this account in order to avoid perpetuating these misnomers.

British Tank Destroyer Achilles 17-pdr M10 SP by Wojciech J. Gawrych:

British Designations

During WW11, The British designated the M10 GMC as the 3-in M10 SPM (Self-Propelled Mount) Mk I with the heavy wedge shaped counterweight, and the 3-inch M10 SPM Mk II with the ‘duck-bill’ counterweight. Many references use the name ‘Wolverine,’ however, there is no wartime documentation to support this. There is a possibility that this name was issued post-war in the Canadian Army. In the British designation system, if the main armament was changed to the British 17-pdr gun, it was signified by the letter C. Thus the M10 GMC fitted with the 17-pdr became the 17-pdr M10 SP Mk 1C with the heavy wedge shaped counterweight, and the 17-pdr M10 SP Mk IIC with the ‘duck-bill’ counterweight. After WWII the name ‘Achilles’ was added to the designation.

The names ‘3-in M10’ and ‘17-pdr M10’ may be more historically accurate than Wolverine and Achilles – but the names Wolverine and Achilles are better known by most wargamers.

Armour

I don’t think the 17-pdr M10 received additional armour. The Gawrych book on the Achilles looks at the vehicle in great detail and does not mention any additional armour being added as standard. The photo of a 17-pdr M10 taken during Operation Varsity shows a RA vehicle that has been fitted with a field-expedient sheet metal roof. The Gawrych book also has a photo of a 17-pdr M10 fitted with appliqué armour, but it makes it clear that the additional bolted plates were of a “provisional field based design, since auxiliary armour plates intended for the M10 were never manufactured.”

A New Suggestion - The LBM

The LBM for the British 17-pdr M10 ‘Achilles’ clearly shows an M10. There is a LBM for the Achilles in winspmbt which could be used instead: PM07025. Any new LBM could also be used for the Canadian and Polish Achilles.

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Cross

In my opinion, the game should use names that are universally accepted and recognized by the players. ‘M10 Wolverine’ is far more recognizable (in the 21st Century) than ‘M10’. The OOB can be confusing enough for new players; let’s make it a little easier for them.

The Wolverine name is widespread and universal. Today, even the Americans have adopted the name, often referring to their own M10’s as ‘Wolverine’ in books and on websites. I guess similar to how many US (non-purists) call their M4 ‘Sherman’.

What I'm objecting to is the notion that Achilles should be used because it is an official name. It was, but only within the walls of the DTD. Everywhere else, the official name was SP, 3-inch, M10 and SP, 17-pr, M10.

Wolverine was never an official British name for the M10 of any sort, perhaps not an official name at all.

As for names being "universally recognized by players", it would seem to me that after the game has been out there for nearly 15 years and its SPCamo incarnations for 10+ years, the names for the M10 that are in the game use work just fine

I've never heard anyone complain that they could not find these vehicles - as opposed to finding out what hides under the PZFNWKTH in the German OOB or the CarArmGrGa in the italian

BTW, most sources I have seen do include ‘Wolverine’ and ‘Achilles’ in the ‘Official’ WW2 designation for the British M10

Sure. Achilles is known because someone back in the day stumbled upon that name, probably in the DTD archives, and used it in his books. Later it was used in the "Armour Profiles" and "British and US Tanks of WWII" in the 1960ies, and the it stuck. And since everyone is copying everyone, it still used all over the place.

The issue was dealt with extensively by Dick Harley in a series of articles on the M10 in AFV News back in the 1990ies, using British archival records. Harleys research did not find any mention of "Wolverine" in the DTD records or anywhere else, so exactly how that name came to be is anyones guess. It would fit the Canadian practice of naming AFVs after wildlife, so perhaps that is the source. Your source "anonymous" seems to think along those lines, as he suggests that Wolverine was a Canadian M10 prototype based on the Ram chassis. Never heard of that one before though...?

As for the "Achilles", you wrote:

US names
M10 3in GMC (Gun Motor Carriage) I/II, was the USA designation for this ‘Tank Destroyer’ with M7 gun.

British names
‘Wolverine’, was the British name for the above unconverted M10’s in British service, but Achilles I/II was the official British name for unconverted M10’s, aka. 3in SP Wolverine.

Achilles Ic/IIc, was the British name for M10’s converted to 17Pdr gun. aka. 17Pdr SP Achilles.

There was not, to my knowledge, ever a M10, 3-inch GMC I/II. I'm not sure what the two roman numerals would indicate?

As for your description of British names, it makes no sense to me? Wolverine was British name for unconverted M10s but they were officially called Achilles as well?

The reality is that there was one US version of the M10, the 3 inch Gun Motor Carriage M10.
When the DTD was labelling them - and they apparently did not do so until 1945 - all M10s, converted or not, were called Achilles. The Achilles I being vehicles with the early turret (V-shaped turret rear), the Achilles II being vehicles with the later turret (flat rear turret). When converted to SP, 17-pr M10, they became Achilles Ic and IIc respectively.

Still, the names probably never existed outside the DTD - and in misguided postware litterature

Ps. Are you also suggesting (to be consistent) we should not use the name ‘Achilles’ in the British OOB?

I suggest game designers do whatever works and make them happy.

Armour
Thank you for the additional info on the armour. You have confirmed my suspicions about the photos and local field fits.

I had heard about the M10 being originally prepared for additional bolt-on armor. I wasn’t sure if this is what the Brits took advantage of during the 17Pdr upgrade. But the source about the additional armour specifically said ‘welded”. I guess history is a mystery…

Or perhaps we should be carefull using as reference an unreferenced post by someone called "anonymous" and "Mr. Bunny" on some interweb blog

[cbo]

Originally Posted by DRG

In the spirt of .." if I make one guy happy I make one guy unhappy " I have renamed it M10 Wolverine. The Achilles stays Achilles. If I started using the "official" designations I'd end up with things like "Truck,3-Ton,GS"

...and that would be so nice!

cbo

[DRG]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

A New Suggestion - The LBM

The LBM for the British 17-pdr M10 ‘Achilles’ clearly shows an M10. There is a LBM for the Achilles in winspmbt which could be used instead: PM07025. Any new LBM could also be used for the Canadian and Polish Achilles.

I've already added a better photo as PM00412

Don

[Lt. Ketch]

Originally Posted by cbo

...and that would be so nice!

cbo

While I kind of agree with you CBO, I don't want to be the one Don asks to do all the research and make all the changes. I'm sure that Don would appreciate any help on the project if you wanted to volenteer.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by cbo

What I'm objecting to is the notion that Achilles should be used because it is an official name. It was, but only within the walls of the DTD.

Hi CBO,

Well at least you recognize that ‘Achilles’ was an official name, but it obviously didn’t remain within the walls of the DTD, because now – like it or not – it is widely recognized.

But this is all academic, as it doesn’t much matter which department where called what when; or which source trail backs it up.

The fact is, the British M10 is widely recognized around the world, in books and on the internet as the ‘Achilles’ and ‘Wolverine’.

After this thread I looked at SPWaW, and the 3in version is called ‘Wolverine’ the 17Pdr ‘Achilles II C’. I don’t mention WaW as reputable source, not at all, but as another example of common usage.

Armour
As for referencing a site which has “anonymous” in the title, well I didn’t claim it was a credible source, in fact I was suspicious of the info. When you are talking about WWII trivia, you can find seven sites with eight different opinions; and half those sites have very official sounding names.

cheers,
Cross

[Imp]

The reality is that there was one US version of the M10, the 3 inch Gun Motor Carriage M10.
When the DTD was labelling them - and they apparently did not do so until 1945 - all M10s, converted or not, were called Achilles. The Achilles I being vehicles with the early turret (V-shaped turret rear), the Achilles II being vehicles with the later turret (flat rear turret). When converted to SP, 17-pr M10, they became Achilles Ic and IIc respectively.

If its misguided most tank museums get it wrong to, Cross lists its full name correctly but in the field it tended to be called Wolverine or M10 plus gun as in M10 17Pdr
This helped us poor Brits tell what it was as naming equipment by a number did not seem to work well with the Brit mind set I guess, its a what so many Ms
Achillies implies its got a soft spot
Wolverine its fast & American as in the animal, perhaps a bit cunning to. Though luckily Baldrick was not around at the time

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Lt. Ketch

While I kind of agree with you CBO, I don't want to be the one Don asks to do all the research and make all the changes. I'm sure that Don would appreciate any help on the project if you wanted to volenteer.

Nah, I've done my stint of several years as an SPWW2 playtester, including a fair bit of OOB fiddling of this nature

cbo

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Cross

Well at least you recognize that ‘Achilles’ was an official name, but it obviously didn’t remain within the walls of the DTD, because now – like it or not – it is widely recognized.

Revisit my first post - I'm saying the same thing I've been saying all along.

The fact is, the British M10 is widely recognized around the world, in books and on the internet as the ‘Achilles’ and ‘Wolverine’.

...and I have just told you why it is so. Doesn't change the fact that it was never used during the war outside the DTD and Wolverine has no official origin and no one - not even on the Interweb, seems to be able to agree on what Wolverine is actually referring to

But I can see that you subscribe to the "if 1.00.000.000.000. flies like ****, then **** must be the greatest thing"-school of thought

After this thread I looked at SPWaW, and the 3in version is called ‘Wolverine’ the 17Pdr ‘Achilles II C’. I don’t mention WaW as reputable source, not at all, but as another example of common usage.

In my world, SPWaW is not a reputable source for anything

Also, in my world, reputable sources are those which has their references in order, which excludes 99,9% of Interweb pages which cannot even be bothered to list the books from which they are illigally copying pictures and information.

Armour
As for referencing a site which has “anonymous” in the title, well I didn’t claim it was a credible source, in fact I was suspicious of the info.

Why, then, do you think its take on names are credible....?

Dont get me wrong, in this day and age, you sometime have to rely on Interweb for information on obscure things, but the basic rules of research still applies. What Mr. Bunny thinks and writes without reference to anything is useless dribble that no one should bother much about. At least go for webpages which has a known author and have some kind of references. They are out there, you know

cbo

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Imp

If its misguided most tank museums get it wrong to,

It may be news to you, but museums gets lots of stuff wrong - often they just use the information available to you and me, primarily books, and they will, like any one else who has not had the time and opportunity to dig into the matter, get it wrong.

I would like to point out redcoat2's post, which clearly shows that the naming issue regarding the M10 is being dealt with in books, showing that not everyone is satisfied endlessly repeating the same old info.

Cross lists its full name correctly

He does?

but in the field it tended to be called Wolverine or M10 plus gun as in M10 17Pdr

..and this you know how?

This helped us poor Brits tell what it was as naming equipment by a number did not seem to work well with the Brit mind set I guess, its a what so many Ms

Actually, judging from manuals and wardiaries, the British were perfectly capable of using silly things like M10, SP, 17-pr M10 and such

Achillies implies its got a soft spot

And you know this how....?

Seems more likely that the DTD decided that self-propelled anti-tank guns should have names beginning with A - like Archer, Achilles and Avenger...

Wolverine its fast & American as in the animal, perhaps a bit cunning to.

There is nothing fast about an M10, nor does Wolverine fit what appears to be the DTDs naming conventions for SP anti-tank guns. Maybe there is a reason why it wasn't used in WWII....

cbo