Rifle amo HE and AP Penetration

[Cross]

Armour can sustain damage from 0 HE if it has an open top.

[leonardus]

Originally Posted by Cross

Armour can sustain damage from 0 HE if it has an open top.

Yes, all af this are obvious. But I strongly questioned for HE=0 penetration, not ATR, not 12,5 mm (which obvious have HE=1), not open top,not light guns, etc just plain damage from ordinary bullet warsized=1 !!
Just read my thread for what I was done.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

you probably had the tank toughness reduced, if it's too low, pistol rounds will penetrate tanks.

[leonardus]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

you probably had the tank toughness reduced, if it's too low, pistol rounds will penetrate tanks.

No, I hadn't.

[Mobhack]

The weak spot code is disallowed for HE type ammo.

Size 1 HE ammo with HE pen 0 will only penetrate class 0 armour or soft vehicle targets. Additional pen is based on Warhead size-1, after all!. There may well be a one in a million case of enough factors in the rest of the spaghetti that it does get through class 1, but I have never seen it in 10+ years of play. You may have hit that one in a million though - I am not going to categorically deny it cannot happen.

It may well have sometimes happened in the old SSI code - but ours requires HE ammo to have an over-penetration to be as effective as an equivalent AP round. (i.e. HE pen is less effective especially for smaller WH sizes).

Therefore, I am rather doubtful of your claim. Perhaps the target vehicle had a class 0 armour aspect (e.g. turret rear).

There is also the special case of fortifications (bunkers, forts, but not an ammo bunker - it is a vehicle class). Those are permeable to HE ammo. (Crew casualties through the firing ports etc). Were you shooting at a fort?.

Andy

[leonardus]

Therefore, I am rather doubtful of your claim. Perhaps the target vehicle had a class 0 armour aspect (e.g. turret rear).

There is also the special case of fortifications (bunkers, forts, but not an ammo bunker - it is a vehicle class). Those are permeable to HE ammo. (Crew casualties through the firing ports etc). Were you shooting at a fort?.

Andy[/quote]

What fort ? I never speak about that. And never speak about having a penetration of Size 1 HE ammo with HE pen 0, only asking for weak spot/extrapenetration in that PARTICULAR situation. Because other HE>0 have that, I can't imagine why this can't, especially when size 1 AP ammo with AP pen 0 do !!!. Off course having a lot lot less chance, but it's in the same principle. So, I never can't believe why a full squad aimed rifle fire from point blank range (or more sugestive sniper fire )don't have the chance of ''weak spots''

[Mobhack]

HE is not an AP round - so does not get weak spot extra penetration for direct aimed fire. Only AP/Sabot/HEAT does.

Also, I think I am getting confused - perhaps because English is not your mother tongue?.

I originally took your postings to mean that you had seen rifle fire penetrate armour.

But on reflection - I think that you are actually asking for rifle fire to be able to penetrate light armour?. Sorry, but that will not change.

Cheers
Andy

[leonardus]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

HE is not an AP round - so does not get weak spot extra penetration for direct aimed fire. Only AP/Sabot/HEAT does.

Also, I think I am getting confused - perhaps because English is not your mother tongue?.

I originally took your postings to mean that you had seen rifle fire penetrate armour.

But on reflection - I think that you are actually asking for rifle fire to be able to penetrate light armour?. Sorry, but that will not change.

Cheers
Andy

OK, I understand. But, please tell me why a sniper aimed rifle from 50 meters can't entered throw vision slit of an armor ? Especially when armor is not on the move and the experience of the sniper is high ? Those situations were very common in ww2, I read about many of them in books. Or, how you imagine a sniper suppression fire at such a vehicle to be ? A no chance tracks/plates chaotic fire which surely attract response fire or a more usefull one trying to find a way throw the driver/gunner slit or something like that ? So, if it's wanted to improve the game to be more challenging and accurate/realistic, here's one good place.Sorry my language but I am NOT insisting for rifle brute penetration fire, but for such above situations ! And never encountered ones, only when I was gaming with the OOB editor and give to rifles some AP rounds instead of the common HE ones. In fact that's not such a stupid thing, when it's a fact that in ww2 ''Between 80 and 90 % of all 7,9mm ammunition produced was of the 7,9 sS (sS for schweres Spitzgeschoss = "heavy pointed bullet") type''......and ''The regular sS projectile had the following penetration performance: 85cm of dry pine wood at 100m, 65cm at 400m, 45cm at 800m and 10cm at 1,800m; 10mm of iron at 300m, 7mm at 550m; 5mm of steel at 100m; 3mm at 600m.''
These numbers tell from themselves.

Thank you.

Leo.

[Imp]

Laugh sorry just the comments about penetration & pine.
Pine has to be the softest wood in the world I can mark it with my fingernail if I try.

[Mobhack]

The minimum armour value in SP is one centimetre (10mm) - so such marginal rounds are not part of the game. Never have been and never will be, especially for HE (ball) rifle ammo.

Shooting through vision slits etc is way beyond the scope of a game set at the company and battalion level.

Perhaps some micro-tactical game out there which deals in individual men at the sub-section tactical level allows for such?. I have never seen it (You would need extra data for vehicles with and without armoured vision blocks, or using periscopes etc - or a 1917 Renault 17 would be treated exactly the same as an M1 Abrams).

Andy