Flak issue

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by mccarty.geoff

It's cool that there is an accuracy slider which can be used to reduce hits. Problem is that a rifle squad can effectively suppress targets at 500m (waste of ammo though). The default threshold between suppression and a hit is too slim causing unrealistic extreme range mass casualties for WW2 forces who were most often poorly supplied. Isn't a major game play problem but, lower ranges and hit percentages would better model WW2 standoff and closed engagements.

Probably true, but then battles would last much longer. Who wants to spend hours of real time playing out "realistic" platoon or company engagements lasting maybe 100 turns or more? And never mind battalion level or higher.

As has been noted before this is a wargame not a simulation. There is enough internal consistency in the combat results to provide a good measure of comparison among weapons systems while allowing replication of real-world tactics to achieve decisive results in the time allotted.

Cheers and happy gaming.

[sigeena]

Single sniper shot that went ricocheting in the turret. Bits of machinery spalled off and blinded the driver. Thus 5 casualties. Not 5 kills, but 5 casualties.

[Isto]

There is a chest full of ammo and one guy carries from the front and one from behind ?

The strongest ones in the group. 2 chests = 4 soldiers carrying.

80mm Mortar seems to have around 160kg worth of ammo. Definetely not easy to manage.

120mm Mortar seems to have over half a ton kg worth of ammunition, would definetely need some wheeled cart or something.

15cm SiG (Germany ww2) that has speed 1 have probably close to 2 tons of ammuniton, do not really how they manage to move at all using only the strength of their crew.

Rest of the field guns tend to have movement speed of 0 to represent this.

Have not thought about this before.

[mccarty.geoff]

There is a misconception about the primitiveness of WW2 mechanization. Even loading out a 5cm granatwerfer section requires motorised supply. You have to ruck mortar bombs and 20kg pack is very fatiguing over an 8 hour march. Horse and wagon can work for local supply but realistically from railhead to the front 10s of thousands of trucks were necessary.
Not an opinion about the game. It is what it is. Basically most weapons teams should be static while ready, require ammunition reinforcement, and a setup period for communications and plotting firetables.

[Isto]

I like to think about those as an abstract element compared to a single PBEM Meeting Engagement battle, that the supply lines are not shown on the map and both players have some presence on the map already.

So artillery pieces, Flak guns, AT guns and so have already been transported before the battle and their transportation are not necessarily shown in the field.

But when thinking about the ammo loadouts, artillery over 80mm should only move after deployment by using transports.

[mccarty.geoff]

I'm saying even a light mortar team loaded down with a reasonable amount will only have a few minutes of sustained fire capability. 1kg bomb * 20 rnds * 3 men / 20rpm = 3 mins fire effect. It's why they were particularly a stupid weapon that was phased out of most armies. Not to mention their cost inefficiency compared to artillery. Although I really like them for modern mechanized infantry usage. If a WinSP turn is supposed to be 2 minutes and I believe the 50/60mm mortars carry 80 "shots" which should represent rates of sustained fire / 4 shots per turn (excuse errors been a while since I played). That represents 20 minutes of effective fire or 400kg of ammunition between 3 or 4 men. Pretty goofy numbers.
It's also a major reality break problem with Moylan's Combat Mission series. Mortars and cannon on a foot advance have very limited capability.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by mccarty.geoff

I'm saying even a light mortar team loaded down with a reasonable amount will only have a few minutes of sustained fire capability. 1kg bomb * 20 rnds * 3 men / 20rpm = 3 mins fire effect. It's why they were particularly a stupid weapon that was phased out of most armies. Not to mention their cost inefficiency compared to artillery. Although I really like them for modern mechanized infantry usage. If a WinSP turn is supposed to be 2 minutes and I believe the 50/60mm mortars carry 80 "shots" which should represent rates of sustained fire / 4 shots per turn (excuse errors been a while since I played). That represents 20 minutes of effective fire or 400kg of ammunition between 3 or 4 men. Pretty goofy numbers.
It's also a major reality break problem with Moylan's Combat Mission series. Mortars and cannon on a foot advance have very limited capability.

Firstly as far as I know light mortars made a comeback though grenade launchers seem to have taken over the role now.
In game there may be an error with some double Light Mortar Platoons (2 mortars 6 men 60 rounds a mortar)
Normally a 3 man team carries 30 - 45 rounds for its mortar not 80 so 4 fire missions at full ROF.

[Anton]

Originally Posted by mccarty.geoff

Specifically I find sniper fire is way overpowered in the game. Generally all firearms are given unrealistic actual effective range and accuracy.

How do you know? I should like to read about it in serious sources, including veteran memoirs. My understanding about WW2 snipers was that they fired at a lower rate than in the game but had a much higher percentage of hits at infantry. Shooting at a tank or bunker visor, as was the case in the 1939 Finnish campaign, is of course another kettle of cod. I have seen photos of Finnish bunkers with *lots* of bullet marks around the slits/visors.

Once a sniper takes soldier down, the rest of the squad immediately hit the dust and hide behind cover, making further kills problematic.

[PantherCub]

Getting back to Flak guns. I think they are somewhat overpowered in the game due to two things:

1. AA guns seem to have no problem firing at aircraft and ground targets in the same turn. As an amateur (in flak things) one would suppose that they would have to concentrate on one thing at a time.

2. All AA guns always seem to have some AP ammo. I strongly doubt that all AA guns hade AP rounds available at all times. Perhaps those that had a doctrine for use against ground target, like German 88:s , but for others, I think there should be a fairly high probability that they happen to have no AP rounds.

[Mobhack]

1) AA guns are autocannon, so they have 6 shots usually. I have expert German SPAA in my current core now that show 7 shots. Plenty to pop off at ground targets and aircraft as well. And if they are skilled, then they will be able to get a few bonus reaction shots even when they go to 0 remaining.

2) Giving AA guns a few AP shots is game policy, it was so in the SSI OOBs, and it remains so in ours. Its usually just 5 shots, enough to engage one vehicle so its not excessive, and it makes charging round the enemy rear area hunting down mortar teams just a little more "hairy" for your light armour. If you personally don't like that then by all means feel free to edit the OOBs in Mobhack for your own personal use, and re-run the points calculator afterwards.