Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41

[Redeyes]

It's A3 in Vanilla, I had ultimately call A2 a buff still
Summon Storm Power is just A1, so it will still be available for all air mages to cast with some preparation.

[Lihaässä]

Is there any documentation for CBM? The idea of the mod is great, but it's a bummer that the changes cannot be seen anywhere.

[rdonj]

There should be a readme that comes with the mod files.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by rdonj

There should be a readme that comes with the mod files.

there is! the .dm is the mod file and the .txt is the readme.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

I'm just glad confusion was nerfed. that spell allowed about 10 cheap-*** air mages to slaughter an army of 400 dai bakemono.

it still looks a bit scary th0ough, but the A2 will at least mean that the cheapest mages can't use its overwhelming potential

I think it still needs #ofeffects reduced though. I had to quit an SP game because just entering the mid-game, I was attacked by Vanheim, and I was summarily slaughtering them as I expected to with my strong elite troops - but really even 4-5 Vanjarls spamming Confusion (the AI seems to know?!) could destroy my armies.

The problem isn't even losing battles, so much. But every battle that I won, I would suffer 20-30% attrition, almost entirely from my own men killing eachother. With my formations broken up, the mages would surive EVERY combat, to come back to haunt me again. Against humans it would be horrifying, as they would come with large numbers of cheap-ish mages, supported by strong troops. The AI just used it to win due to its relentless spam attacks of small forces. Thing is it was forces I should lose at most 1-2 men against (I had decent mage support, but no Antimagic), and yet I was losing 20+ in many combats.

Sorry for being so long winded. I just think Confusion would still be "useful" and attractive at #ofeffects 2+ rather than 4+.

[Dedas]

I was playing MA Ulm (as always) with CBM and suddenly I notice that I only build pikeneers. Why? With the CBM change to the pikeneer, it makes all the other infantry practically meaningless. Let's take a look:

Before CBM:
Standard pikeneer
Pike
Damage 5
Attack 1
Defense -1
Length 6

Cost 10 gold 23 resources. Has morale 11 when all the others in the same class have 10.

For comparison here is the maul guy.
Maul
Damage 9
Attack 0
Defense -1
Length 3

Cost 10 gold 22 resources. Morale 10. Other stats identical.
The Battle axe guy is very similar except that it costs 24 resources and has one more defense due to battle axe.

CBM:
Standard Pikeneer
Pike
Damage 6
Attack 2
Defense -1
Length 6

Everything else is the same. No change to the other soldiers in the same class.

So what is my point? Well, even before CBM the pikeener was a very good unit compared to the others for the price. A length 6 weapon means that his attacks will never be repelled, and that he can repel everything except length 6 weapons which are rare. Higher morale speaks for itself. The next lowest resource cost is another plus. He is just awesome on all points except one: damage. If you want to do more damage you buy a battle axe soldier for instance, they cost one more resource, has lower morale, wields a length 3 weapon (meaning that they can get repelled against the common spear). They also have one lower attack. The only plus with the battle axe is that it makes 4 more damage than the pike. It is okay, on many occasions you need that extra damage and hopefully you go up against short swords or broad swords.
With CBM however, the difference in damage between the two is suddenly only 3 and that means that you will hesitate a little before buying anything other than the pike. But that is not all, the pikeneers now has an attack rating of 12 in comparison to the battle axe soldiers 10. So why on earth do you want to buy the much more inferior and more expensive battle axe soldier when you can get the pikeneer?

In my eyes the pikeneer was fine before, it had its niche and you used it a lot because of its many strong points. Now it is the only sensible unit to buy. It was a very thin line, and as the experienced MA Ulm player that I dub myself, I now see that line broken. No biggie but I just love balance and CBM. Yes, I have converted.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Dedas

I was playing MA Ulm (as always) with CBM and suddenly I notice that I only build pikeneers. Why? With the CBM change to the pikeneer, it makes all the other infantry practically meaningless. Let's take a look:

Before CBM:
Standard pikeneer
Pike
Damage 5
Attack 1
Defense -1
Length 6

Cost 10 gold 23 resources. Has morale 11 when all the others in the same class have 10.

For comparison here is the maul guy.
Maul
Damage 9
Attack 0
Defense -1
Length 3

Cost 10 gold 22 resources. Morale 10. Other stats identical.
The Battle axe guy is very similar except that it costs 24 resources and has one more defense due to battle axe.

CBM:
Standard Pikeneer
Pike
Damage 6
Attack 2
Defense -1
Length 6

Everything else is the same. No change to the other soldiers in the same class.

So what is my point? Well, even before CBM the pikeener was a very good unit compared to the others for the price. A length 6 weapon means that his attacks will never be repelled, and that he can repel everything except length 6 weapons which are rare. Higher morale speaks for itself. The next lowest resource cost is another plus. He is just awesome on all points except one: damage. If you want to do more damage you buy a battle axe soldier for instance, they cost one more resource, has lower morale, wields a length 3 weapon (meaning that they can get repelled against the common spear). They also have one lower attack. The only plus with the battle axe is that it makes 4 more damage than the pike. It is okay, on many occasions you need that extra damage and hopefully you go up against short swords or broad swords.
With CBM however, the difference in damage is only 3 and that means that you hesitate a little before buying. But that is not all, the pikeneers now has an attack rating of 12 in comparison to the battle axe soldiers 10. So why on earth do you want to buy the much more inferior and more expensive battle axe soldier when you can get the pikeneer?

In my eyes the pikeneer was fine before, it had its niche and you used it a lot because of its many strong points. Now it is the only sensible unit to buy.

Just my 2 cents.

I was a strong advocate of improving the pike. The issue is that pike guys never actually made good chaff, since they lack spears and their repel rarely meant anything. They also sucked vs cavalry, which never made much sense to me. So I like that the weapon has been improved. I think the problem you've spotted is particular to MA Ulm, because of their wide variety of stuff that's hard to justify building, like the maul infantry. The thing is the job of the guys with two handed weapons is to do damage - if you want them for any other purpose, get the shielded guys instead, because they're better at staying alive and better vs lower prot enemies. So where you don't want to build shielded guys, when you're against high prot dudes, that's where the pike is the worst of the three.

[Dedas]

Yes, that is all sound if it was true that repel sucks. It doesn't. What one first must understand is that repel works both ways. You can repel your enemy when you are attacked and you can get repelled by your enemy when you do. If you wield a pike you will never get repelled (as there isn't any length 7 weapons) and you almost always get to repel. With battle axe (or hammer or morningstar for that matther) you will be at the other end; you will almost always get repelled and almost never get to do repel yourself. You just have to play a little to see the difference.

That is why the pikeneer is a little better unit than it seems, and why the others actually are a little worse than they seem. And that is also the reason why the pikeneer shouldn't get an additional boost.

[Dedas]

As a small demonstration I have attached two files showing pikes and axes against exactly the same enemy units. I ran the test battles 10 times each with very little variation in the results.

Please pay notice to the repel animation on both sides (for pikes the pikeneers and for the battle axes the spears) to see the difference. Attack 12 and morale 11 plus a length 6 weapon is speaks clearly.

CBM version is 1.4

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Dedas

As a small demonstration I have attached two files showing pikes and axes against exactly the same enemy units. I ran the test battles 10 times each with very little variation in the results.

Please pay notice to the repel animation on both sides (for pikes the pikeneers and for the battle axes the spears) to see the difference. Attack 12 and morale 11 plus a length 6 weapon is speaks clearly.

I don't see the point of this test. All it demonstrates is that repel works against things with low morale, which I don't believe was denied. The issue with repel has always been that with a small boost in morale it is easy to ignore. Having length 6 weapons and good attack is nice and all, but since the units with pikes are basically chaff and repel doesn't work against things designed to kill chaff (or units you'd expect to actually do damage, period), it's not too strong.

Do pikemen or axemen do better against elite heavy infantry (let's say, MA Ermor guys)? And why compare pikemen only with the other non shielded troops?