Finnish OOB 6.0

[DRG]

Originally Posted by dmnt

Remove
Patria IFV

Patria IFV with autocannon, stabilizer etc. was probably a guesswork addition at the time

...more likely the result of adding it based on someones helpful recommendation that this certainly going to be added based on the manufacturers optimistic predictions which is why now I don't add ANYTHING to the OOB until it's ACTUALLY in the troops grubby little hands which is why you won't find any changes in the OOB based on info like " XXX will be out of service by the middle of this decade and the replacement will be bought next year ....."

I know I've said this before but maybe it was in a PM to someone else. I will simply ignore ANY info on what MIGHT be produced and am now ONLY interested in weapons and equipment that is actually in service so everyone can save themselves a lot of time and effort by NOT posting things like the the patrol boat "Track follow". I don't care, I don't even cut and paste them to the list and they have no relevance until they are commissioned.

We USED TO be interested in things like this to add some flavour to the future years covered by the OOB's but I'm fed up with creating Icons for things that never see the light of day and then having to pull them from the OOB's.




Don

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by DRG

I know I've said this before but maybe it was in a PM to someone else. I will simply ignore ANY info on what MIGHT be produced and am now ONLY interested in weapons and equipment that is actually in service so everyone can save themselves a lot of time and effort by NOT posting things like the the patrol boat "Track follow". I don't care, I don't even cut and paste them to the list and they have no relevance until they are commissioned.

We USED TO be interested in things like this to add some flavour to the future years covered by the OOB's but I'm fed up with creating Icons for things that never see the light of day and then having to pull them from the OOB's.

I hear you. The reason why I'm also placing these things that are yet to come is to give the links for later use for specifications or more information. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting you guys to track and follow every piece of equipment ordered or negotiated around the world. Instead I use this kind of information to make our home-cooked OOBs to use in our battles between friends.

Patria IFV looks to be based on one configuration Patria is indeed selling, but not the one that FDF was buying.

And now for something completely real. FDF has bought M134D "Minigun" gatling guns for use with the NH-90 helicopters. First batch is expected to be delivered before the end of this year when they will practice shooting and maintaining them on platforms on ground. They'll be installed on helicopters the next year.

The conscript magazine: link, page 13

[DRG]

......when they are actually in use, let me know.

Don

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by dmnt

I have the Helsingin Sanomat news article which provides some in-depth information:

Vehicles

The Sisu NA-140 will be replaced with Bv 206's from Norway if Norway will sell them enough. First test batch has been received already.

Bv 206's (There was a test batch of 10 units) have been accepted and they will enter service at the change of the year. The NA-140's are to be sold by 2017.

There was a longer article in the printed version, which stated that the units are shipped in December 2012 and they're going to start using them from 2013 onwards.

BV 206 at FDF page

Helsingin Sanomat news article

Finnish Army to replace tracked vehicles with Norwegian ones
21.11.2012 16:17 15
STT

The Finnish Defence Forces is to replace all domestic build Sisu tracked vehicles with ones bought from Norway.

The Army has signed a contract for 123 used Hägglunds tracked vehicles acquisition of Norway. It also includes a provision for acquiring additional 150 units. The need of the Army is about 400 units in total.

Price is negotiated at EUR 27 000 each. Vehicles have a mileage in average of 4 000 km (2500 miles) and they are according to FDF of excellent condition.

The Finnish Defence Forces says that the BV 206s diesel engines will be significantly cheaper to use than gasoline driven Sisus.

The Sisu vehicles that are used in troop transportation were made ​​in the 1980s. All 250 Sisu units will be phased out gradually by 2017. They will then be sold at auction.

Modify:
Units: 035, 036, 037, 043: end date to 12/2017

One thing I am uncertain about is the TOW versions (035,036,037) of Nasus. I know for a fact that the mechanical compability to use TOW missiles wherever you have NSV's exist (the NSV mount used is specifically made compatible), but I have no idea if NA-140 was ever used / planned to be used in this combination. So in theory you could plug the TOW to XA-series APCs as well. The same goes for MD-500 which seems to be equipped with Spike anti-tank missiles.

MLRS issues in Finnish OOB.
I'm getting mixed messages with my google searches on whether Finland has cluster munition ammunition or not.

"The cluster munition rockets (M26) which created a fuss were not in the order" http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.s...2008/02/607129
"M30 is in the inspection."

The most reliable note here is the public parts of the thesis (2009), http://publications.theseus.fi/bitst...pdf?sequence=2
about MLRS storage logistics.
AT-2 (mines), M28 (fire practise use) have been bought and are in storage
M30 (GMLRS) investigated
ATACMS investigated

In 2005-2010 the goal was to train conscripts with AT-2 payloads, in 2011-2016 to get CM/ATACMS payloads and train conscripts with them. There's little if any information on the status of the M30 / ATACMS payloads.

In the absence of better information (we know that before 2011 there was no M30 in Finland) and ATACMS is still in the order phase (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...land_12-25.pdf)

Modify:
Unit 557 MLRS Platoon, From 1/2011

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by dmnt

Unit 349 NASAMS II

"NASAMS II FIN -järjestelmän varusmieskoulutus aloitetaan suunnitelmien mukaan Panssariprikaatissa vuonna 2012, josta johtuen jo tässä vaiheessa on järjestelmä saanut nimen ITO12. Kaluston vastaanotto ja henkilökunnan koulutus käynnistyy vuoden 2011 aikana ja ensimmäiset joukkotuotetut yksiköt valmistuvat vuoden 2013 aikana."

NASAMS II FIN system will be used in training conscripts according to the plans in Parola Armoured Brigade in 2012 and beacuse of this the system has been named ITO12. The arrival of equipment and training of the officers will be starting during the year 2011 and first combat ready troops will be out during 2013."

- The platform is SISU 4x4 all terrain truck
- Radar is AN/MPQ-64F1 "Sentinel", no idea on the performance but according to the document it's already in use in Norway
- Electro-optical sensors include TI, CCTV, laser range finder. Max targetting distance is 40 km.

source: FDF pages http://tinyurl.com/cpmmptv

Suggestions (current values):
Availability 1/2013 - 12/2020 (1/2015-)
Size 4, same as Sisu trucks (5)
Fire Control 125 (0)
Vision 40 (0)
EW 7 (0)
Crew 3 (8)

NASAMS II units presented for media:
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Satojen+mil...a1354255221733

NCOs have been trained for the task since September, the privates to be trained will enter their service in Jan 2013.

Availability 6/2013 - 12/2020

[dmnt]

Note, Don, that later on the above specifications were tweaked a little bit based on the comparison to other units.

Vision 40 -> 45
EW 7 -> 8
Armor: Steel/HEAT: 1 all over

[dmnt]

Investigating, skip this Don

Has anyone any idea whether FDF is using XA-185 + TOW combination? I found lots of forum posts where people have seen Bv 206 + TOW or NA-140 + TOW combinations and even used them, but for XA-185 + TOW I only remember having heard about it in the FDF and coming up with some pictures from the internet:
http://www.militaryimages.net/photop...php/photo/8381

Wikipedia lists "some equipped with TOW turrets" but... no references.

Just prototypes? Are they disassembled already?

[dmnt]

Modify

BMP-1's were modernized in 1991-1994. They were equipped with the same Wegmann smoke grenade launchers as T-55MS got back in 1989. These smoke screens were used in BMP-1 and BMP-1Ps models.

Modify units 028, 029:
EW 3 (1 VIRSS shot)

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=17606
Pictures showing clearly the FDF insignia and smoke grenade launchers, right from the barrel.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/c...MP-1_FI_01.jpg
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/c...MP-1_FI_02.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMP-1_variants#Finland


Add
Finally, by accident, I was able to find a picture of a PaSi XA-203 with an ATGM.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1...iaxa2030uy.jpg

Copy unit 051 over 052 or 053 (no proof of XA-203+ ever existing)

Add weapon 165 PstOhj 83M or 169 Spike MR with appropriate number of shots (4?). Same availability dates etc.

As I served before 2002 when XA-203 was not available but I heard about XA-185 being able to host an ATGM I believe there should also be a XA-185 variant - but like I said, it's only hearsay and projection from this one picture of XA-203 with an ATGM.

[dmnt]

Sorry, should've checked them all at the same time.

BMP-2 also received the 72mm smoke grenade launchers, 6 units in total to be launched in a 3+3 combination.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nish_BMP-2.jpg

Modify:
Units 031, 032
EW to 4 (2 VIRSS shots)

[dmnt]

Modify

Supercedes XA-360 changes in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...8&postcount=13

I have no idea how this escaped my eye. Incorrect weapon, unit 054 Patria AMV.
Should be: .50 cal MG M2HB QCB
Additionally, copy the unit to replace the IFV (Which was rejected after prototype tests) with an APC equipped with an AGL. Add stabiliser and bump up range finder.

My estimates:
Stabiliser value: 5 (As with IFV had)
Range finder: 22
Vision: 40
Fire Control: 30?

Fire control used to be 5, the same as I proposed for XA-203. IFV version had a FC value of 30, but I have no idea where it comes from. XA-203 has a different (lighter) type of turret, OWS.

http://tinyurl.com/bl77yrp

"Browning M2 raskaan konekiväärin uudelleen käyttöönotto Suomessa tapahtui XA-360 ajoneuvoihin hankittujen kauko-ohjattujen asetornien myötä. Suomen käyttämät RWS-tornit (Remote Weapon Station) ovat Norjassa valmistettu. Tornin aseistuksena on joko 12,7 RSKK 2005 tai 40 KRKK 2005. Kauko-ohjatut tornit on varustettu päivä- ja lämpökameralla, laseretäisyysmittarilla ja vakaimilla. Tietokone laskee ampuma-arvot etäisyyden mukaan ja ampujan tehtäväksi jää vain suunnata tähtäin risti maaliin ja laukaista ase."

"Re-introduction of Browning M2 heavy machine gun in Finland happened with the remote controlled turrets in XA-360 vehicles. The RWS turrets are manufactured in Norway. The weapon in the turret is either 12,7 HMG 2005 or 40 AGL 2005. Remote controlled turrets are equipped with daylight and thermal imaging cameras, laser range finders and stabilisers. A computer calculates the parameters by distance and the only mission for the operator is to direct the crosshair to the target and fire the gun."