M4 Carbine Range question

[DRG]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Also don't "our troops" (AI's well.) get a little better over time? Some of you might not see this because of how you play the game(s), I do as I always, again, play long campaigns that last at least 21 to 31 battles over the course of 12-18 months.
Regards,
Pat

If all you play are campaigns and you keep your core units with at least one man healthy by the end of their battle and you don't have to fully replace units then yes YOU WILL see them get better over time and that will be reflected on how well they engage targets as they gain battle experience no matter if its infantry or a tank crew

[DRG]

Originally Posted by DRG

1/ The M4 carbine has had a range of 4 since 2002 and it's now 2021 ...nineteen years ...the VERY FIRST release....and in that time one ( 1 ) person ( you..) has questioned it and 2002 was before I took on the totally wonderful job of trying to keep these things straight so IDK what "the logic behind" that particular decision was exactly and since it's never been mentioned before I'd have to guess it's use was considered to be more for short range close combat situations rather than long-range shooting. That's my guess... the other is the guy who put it in f%*ked up and it took 19 years to be noticed

2/ Weapons with better than iron sights get to shoot further that's why AGOG etc are a bit more than standard along with increase accuracy makes them more effective

3/ The M4A1 Carbine is 7 but it started life in 2008 at 4 just like the M4 but in 2016 was upgraded to 7 and I would suggest since I do not have an Edenic memory ( but I do keep copies of the past release OOB's ) that some unnamed player mentioned the range was too short for the M4A1 at 4 and it was changed but the M4 was overlooked.

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UPDATE...but now it and all the others in the various OOB's are 6 and the M4A1 is 7 and for purposes of the game the "M4" is assumed to use Iron sights but the "A1" is assumed to use optics. The M4 should have been upgraded to 6 range when the M4A1 Carbine was upgraded to 7 range but to put this in perspective the weapon used in the game by most US units for the current time period is the M16A4/M4 ACOG RIFLE which has a range of 9 hexes. The M4 "Carbine" is what's used by Mortar crews, TOW teams, and forward observers and in some few cases, scout teams in the game but I think there is a semantics issue here.

The current M4 rifle is generally referred to as a "carbine" rather than "assault rifle" ( for reasons I think have more to do with political correctness ) but what most US troops use in the game is the "rifle" version with the longer range and optics.

The "M4 Carbine" was put into the first MBT OOB with a 4 range and I am assuming since I was not the guy who built the original OOB thought that this "carbine" version was a short-barreled firearm not unlike the Russian AKS-74U (like the M4 COMMANDO with an 11.5" barrel) which would explain the similar range and why it was only generally issued to support or HQ units in the game.

[Karagin]

M4 is the 3 round burst rifle/carbine, the M4A1 is the one that goes back to the M16 and M16A1 with full auto in place of 3 round burst.

Second, the M4 with Optics is the standard-issue RIFLE for ALL US Army units, with the expectation of cooks in some units. So everyone from infantry to admin has in M4 or M4A1 in combat.

Third, the shorter ranged Carbines are things like CAR-15 and M4 Commando, those aren't issued to line or support units, those are SPEC OPS toys.

[Mobhack]

And the standard issue weapon for rifle teams in the USA OOB is the M16A4 / M4 ACOG - weapon #9, you know, the one with 9 hexes range, extra acc etc.

The other M4s are used by weapon teams etc and a hex or so diference means diddly-squat in that use case since if they are firing thier small arms at an opponent then they are just about to die...

users of weapon ID 9 M16A4 / M4 ACOG:
102 - Scout Team - uClass 058 : slot 1 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
103 - Scout Team - uClass 058 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
372 - Cavalry Scouts - uClass 082 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
373 - LMG Team - uClass 065 : slot 2 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
383 - Airmobile Squad - uClass 186 : slot 1 - Available 10/110 to 12/125
424 - Rifle Squad - uClass 001 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/114
425 - Rifle Squad - uClass 001 : slot 1 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
428 - Ranger Patrol - uClass 248 : slot 1 - Available 03/109 to 12/125
437 - Rifle Squad - uClass 068 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
441 - Ranger Squad - uClass 111 : slot 1 - Available 03/109 to 12/125
458 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 072 : slot 1 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
482 - Mech Rifle Sec - uClass 074 : slot 1 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
483 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 071 : slot 1 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
499 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 071 : slot 1 - Available 01/106 to 12/125
575 - Airborne Scouts - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
576 - Airborne Scouts - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 10/110 to 12/125
587 - Para Rifle Sqd - uClass 096 : slot 1 - Available 10/110 to 12/125
694 - Airborne Scouts - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
697 - Para Rifle Sqd - uClass 096 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/125
699 - Airmobile Squad - uClass 186 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/111
700 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 072 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/125
701 - Rifle Squad - uClass 001 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
702 - Rifle Squad - uClass 068 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
703 - Rifle Squad - uClass 001 : slot 1 - Available 01/105 to 12/125
704 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 071 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/125
707 - Ranger Squad - uClass 111 : slot 1 - Available 03/109 to 12/125
708 - IBCT Rifle Sqd - uClass 067 : slot 1 - Available 01/105 to 12/125
710 - Mech Rifle Sec - uClass 074 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
711 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 070 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
714 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 226 : slot 1 - Available 06/111 to 12/125
719 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 226 : slot 1 - Available 06/111 to 12/125
721 - Para Rifle Sqd - uClass 096 : slot 1 - Available 10/110 to 12/125
725 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 071 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
737 - Scout Team+ - uClass 058 : slot 1 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
738 - Scout Team+ - uClass 058 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
739 - Mech Rifle Sqd - uClass 226 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/125
747 - Cavalry Scouts+ - uClass 082 : slot 1 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
748 - Cavalry Scouts+ - uClass 082 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
756 - Abn Scouts+ - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 10/110 to 12/125
759 - Ranger Squad - uClass 111 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/114
761 - Assault Eng - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 01/106 to 12/125
763 - Assault Eng - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 01/106 to 12/125
764 - Pioneers - uClass 140 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
769 - Para Engineers - uClass 141 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
777 - LMG Team - uClass 065 : slot 2 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
780 - MMG Section - uClass 194 : slot 3 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
787 - Abn LAW Team - uClass 142 : slot 2 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
791 - Abn M1060 Tm - uClass 142 : slot 2 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
792 - 40mm M1060 Tm - uClass 002 : slot 2 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
811 - LMG Team - uClass 065 : slot 2 - Available 01/106 to 12/125
834 - Sandbag Foxhole - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
834 - Sandbag Foxhole - uClass 000 : slot 2 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
839 - Sandbag Foxhole - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
839 - Sandbag Foxhole - uClass 000 : slot 2 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
842 - Sandbag MG Pit - uClass 000 : slot 3 - Available 01/113 to 12/125
843 - Rifle Squad - uClass 068 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
861 - EOD Team - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
878 - MMG Section - uClass 194 : slot 3 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
952 - Shelter Bunker - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
954 - Concrete Bunker - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
961 - Ranger LAW Team - uClass 146 : slot 2 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
962 - Ranger TBG Team - uClass 146 : slot 2 - Available 01/106 to 12/125
969 - Ranger LAW Team - uClass 146 : slot 2 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
972 - M136 LAW Team - uClass 002 : slot 2 - Available 01/110 to 12/125
986 - Natl Guardsmen - uClass 161 : slot 1 - Available 01/115 to 12/125
987 - Natl Guardsmen - uClass 161 : slot 1 - Available 01/106 to 12/114
989 - Natl Guardsmen - uClass 160 : slot 1 - Available 01/106 to 12/110
999 - Natl Guardsmen - uClass 160 : slot 1 - Available 01/114 to 12/125

and compare with:

users of weapon ID 10 M4 Carbine:
084 - 81mm Mortar Sec - uClass 005 : slot 3 - Available 01/095 to 12/125
095 - 40mm Mk 19 GL - uClass 007 : slot 2 - Available 01/082 to 12/102
105 - 40mm Mk 19 GL B - uClass 007 : slot 2 - Available 01/103 to 12/125
109 - MP Squad - uClass 178 : slot 1 - Available 01/095 to 12/125
245 - Headquarters - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 01/095 to 12/125
264 - 84mm Recoilless - uClass 208 : slot 2 - Available 01/112 to 12/125
340 - TOW Team - uClass 212 : slot 2 - Available 01/087 to 12/125
487 - Abn MMG Section - uClass 149 : slot 3 - Available 01/094 to 12/125
497 - 50 Cal M2HB HMG - uClass 176 : slot 2 - Available 01/096 to 12/125
518 - 120mm Mortar - uClass 202 : slot 2 - Available 01/094 to 12/125
546 - IBCT Rifle Sqd - uClass 051 : slot 1 - Available 01/105 to 12/125
549 - Fwd Observer - uClass 063 : slot 1 - Available 01/100 to 12/125
552 - Fwd Observer - uClass 063 : slot 1 - Available 01/085 to 12/125
617 - Fwd Observer - uClass 063 : slot 1 - Available 01/095 to 12/100
772 - 40mm Mk 19 GL B - uClass 007 : slot 2 - Available 01/106 to 12/125
774 - 40mm Mk 47 GL - uClass 007 : slot 2 - Available 01/107 to 12/125
775 - 40mm Mk 47 GL - uClass 007 : slot 2 - Available 01/107 to 12/125
810 - HBCT Recon Tm A - uClass 081 : slot 1 - Available 01/105 to 12/125
816 - HBCT Recon Tm B - uClass 094 : slot 1 - Available 01/105 to 12/125
820 - Abn FO - uClass 229 : slot 1 - Available 01/100 to 12/125
823 - Abn FO - uClass 229 : slot 1 - Available 01/085 to 12/125

And

users of weapon ID 6 M4A1 Carbine:
427 - Ranger Patrol - uClass 248 : slot 1 - Available 01/094 to 12/114
440 - Ranger Squad - uClass 111 : slot 1 - Available 01/094 to 12/114
706 - Ranger Squad - uClass 111 : slot 1 - Available 01/094 to 12/105

So the non-acog M4 is used by odds and sods, and some rangers have it in the pre Acog version, And those teams post the intoduction of ACOGs wont be getting duplicates with an ACOG post the intro date - because the USA OOB is full up, with no reason to waste any feee slot on duplicated weapon teams with a weapon that really is of no consequence for things that are only firing small arms because they are deep in the brown smelly stuff

(The search function is in the database search section of Mobhack, under the weapons tab, "find Weapons Users" sub-tab)

[Karagin]

Then why not switch them to ACOG version and remove the other M4 Clones?

[DRG]

But what's most troops use in the game is the M4 ACOG with a range of 9 and not the "M4 Carbine"

All I'm doing is trying to explain perhaps why that was put in as it was nearly 20 years ago and point out that in the game what the line troops use is not the short-ranged carbine version but the longer-ranged " rifle" version

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Karagin

Then why not switch them to ACOG version and remove the other M4 Clones?

Why switch WHICH "thems"
Weapon 8 is the Iron sight M16
weapon 9 is the ACOG M16/M4 rifle

and those are the two main rifles used my US troops in the game

For the limited purposes of the game the M4A1 is an ACOG version and it's used by three(3) units

users of weapon ID 6 M4A1 Carbine:
427 - Ranger Patrol - uClass 248 : slot 1 - Available 01/094 to 12/114
440 - Ranger Squad - uClass 111 : slot 1 - Available 01/094 to 12/114
706 - Ranger Squad - uClass 111 : slot 1 - Available 01/094 to 12/105

Do you know about the "find weapon users" in the database in MOBHack ?

[Karagin]

There is NO difference between the M4 or M4A1 and the item in slot 9. An M4 Carbine or Rifle is still shooting the same distance as far as the US Army wants and the adding of optics means that 300 to 500-meter long-range shot might get a better chance of hitting, but the 275 and below will be hits.

I really think whoever did up the US Army OOB confused the M4 Carbine with things like the CAR-15 which is a short range CQB carbine.

The M4s issued without optics to soldiers is the same one that issued with optics, the weapon didn't change, just one is using iron sights and the other has an ACOG or M68 Red Dot CQB sight. That's it. Which has been my whole point all along.

We have three weapons that are the same thing with three different ranges. The M4 the game claims the mortar teams have should be the same weapon that the infantry units have. Again I am talking from real-world experience and point of fact even the Guard and Reserve units have now converted over to the M4 and M4AL, so really the M16 series is going away as foreign aid.

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by DRG

For the limited purposes of the game the M4A1 is an ACOG version and it's used by three(3) units

Do you know about the "find weapon users" in the database in MOBHack ?

Yes, I know about the feature.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Karagin

I really think whoever did up the US Army OOB confused the M4 Carbine with things like the CAR-15 which is a short range CQB carbine.

Which is exactly what I pointed out in an earlier post.

The point is IN THE GAME most units already use the weapon you think they should use and these other short ranged ones were ( I suspect ) thought to be as you say the like the CAR-15 so what we could do is give weapon 9 to everyone using 6 and 10 and everything would be as you think it should be ?