Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41

[Redeyes]

It's A3 in Vanilla, I had ultimately call A2 a buff still
Summon Storm Power is just A1, so it will still be available for all air mages to cast with some preparation.

[Dedas]

I was playing MA Ulm (as always) with CBM and suddenly I notice that I only build pikeneers. Why? With the CBM change to the pikeneer, it makes all the other infantry practically meaningless. Let's take a look:

Before CBM:
Standard pikeneer
Pike
Damage 5
Attack 1
Defense -1
Length 6

Cost 10 gold 23 resources. Has morale 11 when all the others in the same class have 10.

For comparison here is the maul guy.
Maul
Damage 9
Attack 0
Defense -1
Length 3

Cost 10 gold 22 resources. Morale 10. Other stats identical.
The Battle axe guy is very similar except that it costs 24 resources and has one more defense due to battle axe.

CBM:
Standard Pikeneer
Pike
Damage 6
Attack 2
Defense -1
Length 6

Everything else is the same. No change to the other soldiers in the same class.

So what is my point? Well, even before CBM the pikeener was a very good unit compared to the others for the price. A length 6 weapon means that his attacks will never be repelled, and that he can repel everything except length 6 weapons which are rare. Higher morale speaks for itself. The next lowest resource cost is another plus. He is just awesome on all points except one: damage. If you want to do more damage you buy a battle axe soldier for instance, they cost one more resource, has lower morale, wields a length 3 weapon (meaning that they can get repelled against the common spear). They also have one lower attack. The only plus with the battle axe is that it makes 4 more damage than the pike. It is okay, on many occasions you need that extra damage and hopefully you go up against short swords or broad swords.
With CBM however, the difference in damage between the two is suddenly only 3 and that means that you will hesitate a little before buying anything other than the pike. But that is not all, the pikeneers now has an attack rating of 12 in comparison to the battle axe soldiers 10. So why on earth do you want to buy the much more inferior and more expensive battle axe soldier when you can get the pikeneer?

In my eyes the pikeneer was fine before, it had its niche and you used it a lot because of its many strong points. Now it is the only sensible unit to buy. It was a very thin line, and as the experienced MA Ulm player that I dub myself, I now see that line broken. No biggie but I just love balance and CBM. Yes, I have converted.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Dedas

I was playing MA Ulm (as always) with CBM and suddenly I notice that I only build pikeneers. Why? With the CBM change to the pikeneer, it makes all the other infantry practically meaningless. Let's take a look:

Before CBM:
Standard pikeneer
Pike
Damage 5
Attack 1
Defense -1
Length 6

Cost 10 gold 23 resources. Has morale 11 when all the others in the same class have 10.

For comparison here is the maul guy.
Maul
Damage 9
Attack 0
Defense -1
Length 3

Cost 10 gold 22 resources. Morale 10. Other stats identical.
The Battle axe guy is very similar except that it costs 24 resources and has one more defense due to battle axe.

CBM:
Standard Pikeneer
Pike
Damage 6
Attack 2
Defense -1
Length 6

Everything else is the same. No change to the other soldiers in the same class.

So what is my point? Well, even before CBM the pikeener was a very good unit compared to the others for the price. A length 6 weapon means that his attacks will never be repelled, and that he can repel everything except length 6 weapons which are rare. Higher morale speaks for itself. The next lowest resource cost is another plus. He is just awesome on all points except one: damage. If you want to do more damage you buy a battle axe soldier for instance, they cost one more resource, has lower morale, wields a length 3 weapon (meaning that they can get repelled against the common spear). They also have one lower attack. The only plus with the battle axe is that it makes 4 more damage than the pike. It is okay, on many occasions you need that extra damage and hopefully you go up against short swords or broad swords.
With CBM however, the difference in damage is only 3 and that means that you hesitate a little before buying. But that is not all, the pikeneers now has an attack rating of 12 in comparison to the battle axe soldiers 10. So why on earth do you want to buy the much more inferior and more expensive battle axe soldier when you can get the pikeneer?

In my eyes the pikeneer was fine before, it had its niche and you used it a lot because of its many strong points. Now it is the only sensible unit to buy.

Just my 2 cents.

I was a strong advocate of improving the pike. The issue is that pike guys never actually made good chaff, since they lack spears and their repel rarely meant anything. They also sucked vs cavalry, which never made much sense to me. So I like that the weapon has been improved. I think the problem you've spotted is particular to MA Ulm, because of their wide variety of stuff that's hard to justify building, like the maul infantry. The thing is the job of the guys with two handed weapons is to do damage - if you want them for any other purpose, get the shielded guys instead, because they're better at staying alive and better vs lower prot enemies. So where you don't want to build shielded guys, when you're against high prot dudes, that's where the pike is the worst of the three.

[Dedas]

Yes, that is all sound if it was true that repel sucks. It doesn't. What one first must understand is that repel works both ways. You can repel your enemy when you are attacked and you can get repelled by your enemy when you do. If you wield a pike you will never get repelled (as there isn't any length 7 weapons) and you almost always get to repel. With battle axe (or hammer or morningstar for that matther) you will be at the other end; you will almost always get repelled and almost never get to do repel yourself. You just have to play a little to see the difference.

That is why the pikeneer is a little better unit than it seems, and why the others actually are a little worse than they seem. And that is also the reason why the pikeneer shouldn't get an additional boost.

[Dedas]

As a small demonstration I have attached two files showing pikes and axes against exactly the same enemy units. I ran the test battles 10 times each with very little variation in the results.

Please pay notice to the repel animation on both sides (for pikes the pikeneers and for the battle axes the spears) to see the difference. Attack 12 and morale 11 plus a length 6 weapon is speaks clearly.

CBM version is 1.4

[Endoperez]

I've also noticed the problem with MA Ulm, and made a mod to change it. It started by changing resource costs and damage s that MA Ulm's recruitables are different, but it grew "a little" to change most mundane weapons...

If you're interested, I can upload the mod somewhere. I thought I already uploaded it into the giants BC thread, but I couldn't find it again.

[Dedas]

You are most welcome to upload it, Endo!

Thank you for taking the time make a mod trying to address these issues. It will be very interesting to look at your suggestions.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Dedas

As a small demonstration I have attached two files showing pikes and axes against exactly the same enemy units. I ran the test battles 10 times each with very little variation in the results.

Please pay notice to the repel animation on both sides (for pikes the pikeneers and for the battle axes the spears) to see the difference. Attack 12 and morale 11 plus a length 6 weapon is speaks clearly.

I don't see the point of this test. All it demonstrates is that repel works against things with low morale, which I don't believe was denied. The issue with repel has always been that with a small boost in morale it is easy to ignore. Having length 6 weapons and good attack is nice and all, but since the units with pikes are basically chaff and repel doesn't work against things designed to kill chaff (or units you'd expect to actually do damage, period), it's not too strong.

Do pikemen or axemen do better against elite heavy infantry (let's say, MA Ermor guys)? And why compare pikemen only with the other non shielded troops?

[Dedas]

What I want to show is not that the pikeneers can repel but that they can't be repelled. That gives them an edge over axe men (length 3). More so to hammer men (length 1) who will often get repelled, even by broad swords (length 2) because of their rather low morale (10-11) and low defense (10-11). Battle axe guys are easier to repel (defense (6-7) but you need a spear (length 4 to 3).

Pikeneers can ignore all this that would have been a problem (due to low defense) without their pike (length) and can just strike unhindered. And they are greatly helped by the extra attack bonus from the CBM pike (from 11 to 12).

[chrispedersen]

I hear ya on this Dedas, but in a game of rocks scissors paper the answer is archers.

I think perhaps the answer is to bump the pikes cost up by 1-2, to correspond to the increased attack, or to lower the other units an equivalent amount.