EA Agartha - the game's red-headed stepchild (CBM)

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Agema

Heroes...

Free researchers are a tiny drop in the research ocean. You'll get them on average about one every 8-9 turns with Luck-3. Instead of taking Luck-3, you'd do better taking Magic-1.

So getting the equivalent of a free skull mentor year one is irrelevant? Really? Why do people bother to forge them then... The average research from a hero i've seen is ~9.5. That's probably better than a 10% increase in total research output year one.

Now imagine you see more than one in the first year. (Seen it).

Also, if you actually read the OP you'll note I *also* took Magic 1.

And what are the heroes really giving you? E5 is irrelevant: you'll get E5 oracles anyway, and you've got Earth Boots. You can cast any Earth spell in the game pretty much with national recruits. W5 is more interesting, but you'll pick up W2 easily and W3 if you're lucky on nationals. Add the water boosters you've got W4 at least. However, water arguably is the least of Agartha's 4 national paths: you get more traction out of fire and death (and obviously, earth).

E5 is:
Another caster who can cast Weapons of Sharpness.
Another caster who can spam Earth Attack as needed.
Another caster who can cast Army of Gold/Lead.
etc...

W5 is.. um.. ok, less useful overall. But it gives you a caster who can easily summon Queens of Water (which you may want if playing amphibiously). Or forge robes of the sea if you need early water boosters (because counting on getting W3E3 is pushing it).

Just because its a path you already have doesn't make it worthless.

[Agema]

Sorry, I missed that you included Magic-1. But nevertheless, if you get 9-10 research heroes on average every 8-9 turns, this will, by turn 30 say, have given you only about 350-400 extra research in total. Depending on various factors, that's about what a single turn's research would be at turn 30, in essence it's put you only about one turn ahead of where you would have been.

I appreciate what you mean about your God forging and researching, and I agree it's a good idea to get Oracles out there as thug/SCs quickly. However, I disagree you need to do it that quickly, because I strongly disagree that Agartha's troops are as weak as you think.

Firstly, your giants are enormously survivable. Yes, 9Att 10Def is weak, but they should gain XP and not die, and will rapidly be about 11Att 12Def, which is perfectly respectable. Plus you are in a prime bless situation: +1/2Att is pretty easy to afford.

Secondly, don't get too hung up on Agartha's terrible Att values. Pale Ones have a ton of HP, which creates a compensation. Think of it as hits inflicted during lifespan. Although Pale Ones might only hit at the rate of about 60-70% of a human, they only need to live 50% longer and in fact they will score, on average, the same number of hits before dying as a human, and they've got the HP to do that.

[LDiCesare]

I think the guide doesn't mention the fact that Agarthans are amphibious. This is one of the only strengths of Agarthan troops, and very much worth mentioning. Of course if you're playing a game with a single big ocean and 3 water nations inside, it won't do you much good, but if there aren't that many or there's a nearby lake, it can help a lot.

Nature bless reduces afflcition by 1/8th, but not afflictions due to age. It usually makes a big difference.

Lambasting Agarthan mags precision is also exaggerated. They can cast destruction + blade wind, and they will kill a lot of people with that. Sure they aren't precise, but the amount of blades you cast makes for the poor precision.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

Lambasting Agarthan mags precision is also exaggerated. They can cast destruction + blade wind, and they will kill a lot of people with that. Sure they aren't precise, but the amount of blades you cast makes for the poor precision.

I can testify from "Legends of Faerun" that the precison on those Oracles is certainly worth lambasting as much as possible. I've easily killed more of my own troops with Blade Wind and Magma Eruption etc. than I have of my enemies. The abysmal precision also makes casting buff spells a lottery. As even when I've surrounded my Oracle with those he was meant to buff, he still regularly missed 50%+ of the intended targets, with the rest of the spell covering thin air.

From my experience in that game, as far as the Agarthan mages are concerned, the amount of times you can cast a spell such as Blade Wind does little to make up for the number of times you will miss everything with it at long range, and hit your own troops at short range.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by Calahan

I can testify from "Legends of Faerun" that the precison on those Oracles is certainly worth lambasting as much as possible. I've easily killed more of my own troops with Blade Wind and Magma Eruption etc. than I have of my enemies. The abysmal precision also makes casting buff spells a lottery. As even when I've surrounded my Oracle with those he was meant to buff, he still regularly missed 50%+ of the intended targets, with the rest of the spell covering thin air.

From my experience in that game, as far as the Agarthan mages are concerned, the amount of times you can cast a spell such as Blade Wind does little to make up for the number of times you will miss everything with it at long range, and hit your own troops at short range.

I've had great success with evocations as EA Agartha personally. The only reason why my mages killed my own guys was that f*** regenrating Niefel giant stuck in a whole in the cave who wanted to rout but couldn't, and was surrounded by my soldiers who couldn't reach him to strike him. The bug of people stuck in unreachable parts of the battlefield has been fixed since, fortunately.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

The bug of people stuck in unreachable parts of the battlefield has been fixed since, fortunately.

Didn't know that it had been fixed. But I did run into that exact bug a few turns ago in the 'Red Ruby' game when I tried storming the LA Agartha capital. So it's not a totally busted bug yet unfortunately

[Frozen Lama]

i think the reason everyone wants a N bless is that this guide is all about SC's, and if one of them gets a chest wound, or such, he's retired instantly. if you were focusing on building troops, the F might make more sense, but with SC's, they need to survive, and most afflictions cripple them. if you have 1/8 the afflictions, that's 1/8 the amount of retired SC's

[thejeff]

I know Bless claims to be Prec 100, but I've never completely trusted that.
I've definitely had solitary thugs miss trying to bless themselves. (Jotun Jarls, I'm looking at you.)
Does the AoE not always include the actual target square? It's the only way I can match 100 prec with reality.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by thejeff

I know Bless claims to be Prec 100, but I've never completely trusted that.
I've definitely had solitary thugs miss trying to bless themselves. (Jotun Jarls, I'm looking at you.)
Does the AoE not always include the actual target square? It's the only way I can match 100 prec with reality.

As I understand it, that's correct: AoE is not guaranteed to include any particular square, including the target square. This is why you can fail to bless yourself, even though at zero range you're within the "auto-hit" distance for any positive Prec. I suppose you could double-check this by watching a bunch of fights with a Shadow Brand and seeing if the square attacked is always affected by the leeching darkness effect--I've never done so because for me the issue isn't in doubt. But I could be wrong...

-Max

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

As I understand it, that's correct: AoE is not guaranteed to include any particular square, including the target square. This is why you can fail to bless yourself, even though at zero range you're within the "auto-hit" distance for any positive Prec. I suppose you could double-check this by watching a bunch of fights with a Shadow Brand and seeing if the square attacked is always affected by the leeching darkness effect--I've never done so because for me the issue isn't in doubt. But I could be wrong...

-Max

Weapons and spells work very differently in dom3, so I don't see the point in the comparison,.. certainly shadow brand doesn't cast a spell, it just has a secondaryeffectalways which is similar to a spell. Same with false fetters on that morning star.