[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[rextorres]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
I have seen a lot of Posts in this thread and I respect most of the positions. One of the problems I have noticed is that many people rely on CNN, MSNBC, and other large Entertainment services to provide facts for their statements. These are poor sources, the show the things that create Ratings and color stories to make them more news worthy. For months now they have put great strength in the position that the inspector take during their reports to the UN. Has anyone of you seen a CNN story about the failure of inspections in the past. The UN has never completed a successful program. I would like to suggest that those of you who have a real interest start checking the raw data, the reports that CNN and MSNBC edit and add unrelated video to. Also check the reports that are written by respectable sources. Sure, it takes time to read them, but you will learn a lot from them. The other day I posted a report writhen by the State Dept. during the Clinton years. It was damning then and is still on the valid list today. But not one reply about it? Some of you should read it. Here is a link to a paper done by a think tank. The worldly among you will recognize the name, and realize that this group has impeccable credentials, unlike some of the fly by night tanks that have been quoted to date. We all have systems with net access, go out and look around. There is a lot of raw data to be had.

http://www.csis.org/burke/iraqishellgame.pdf

Inspections will never solve the problem in Iraq, and every member of the Security Council knows it.

When you don't like the message criticise the messenger.

If you google the authors of this article, for instance, it turns out that they are pretty conservative - so I could dismiss them as being slanted. So . . . I'm not sure what info from the news sources are suspect.

Did Powell present fake evidence at the UN? He did! - If so what else is fake?

Was the US one of the main suppliers of arms to Iraq in the eighties? Yes it was.

Has Cheney given big post war contracts to his buddies at Haliburton? Yes he has.

Did members of the Bush administration want to go to war before 9/11? Yes they did.

BTW - There is this presupposition that the inspections aren't working - but the inspectors - who are supposed to be experts in this stuff - say they are. I trust the inspectors more than I trust W - especially now. (where's the resolution he promised to present?)

Are you claiming that Blix is secretly working for Saddam?

[Thermodyne]

Was the US one of the main suppliers of arms to Iraq in the eighties? Yes it was.

BTW - There is this presupposition that the inspections aren't working - but the inspectors - who are supposed to be experts in this stuff - say they are. I trust the inspectors more than I trust W - especially now. (where's the resolution he promised to present?)

Are you claiming that Blix is secretly working for Saddam?[/QB]

Well first off, where are these American weapons, when I look, I see soviet and French arms with German facilities. Guaranteeing loans and supplying arms are two different things. It comes down to the old statement that the enemy of my enemies is my friend. Also, we are talking the 80’s here; the relationship was at best cool. Do you recall an American ship hit by a French missile fired from an Iraqi warplane? That would be French supplied weapons I think.

As to the expertise of the inspectors, I would challenge their credentials in any court of law. They are not anywhere near the best people that could have been found and their leader was picked because of his manageability.

[tesco samoa]

I seem to get the feeling that anti-war means pro-sadam. It is not.

The pro-war side against Iraq has yet to proove a solid reason to attack Iraq.

Every Iraqi Weapon of mass Destruction claimed by the US and Britan has thus far turned out , when inspected by the UN to be clean. The Cia and MI-6 claim they know Iraq is still hiding nerve gas. If so why not give these locations to the UN inspectors ? The germ making trucks " Winnebagos of Death" have turned out to be mobile food testing labs. The "Drones of Death" turned out to be model airplanes.

General Hussein Kamel states that he personally supervised the destruction of Iraq's Nerve gas in 1991. Other experts state that their germ and gas weapons would have now deteriorated through age into inertness.

The 150 km range al-samound missles may have exceeded their range by 10 to 15 km. So what. And their being destroyed.

Unable to link Iraq to Osama bin Ladan the bush/blair shift gears. Now it is about liberation. WHy not in the 80's when these worst crimes were committed.

Now the CIA Iraq desk chief has posted the question that the Halabja gassing of the Kurds may have been accidentally caused by Iran.

I have yet to see any proof of a reason to go to war with Iraq. As one fact is prooven as a lie the propaganda machine pumps out two more.

Their has not been one arguement presented that gives a single reason why this war must occur.

All I see is that we have to rely on faith of the USA/Britan Gov't.

Lets hope thier is not another gulf of Tonkin or Iraq build up on Saudi boarders, no doubt their will be. Perhaps 1 or 2 weeks into the war some WMD will be discovered.

Funny in another thread faith is underattack, as it is here.
To me it looks like a re-election winnable war. It has been done many times before in history.

Dr. Hasan El-Attar states that "Those for war are quick to label those who oppose the war as Pro-Saddam. I am a dissident to the regime of saddam who left iraq in 1975. I oppose this war against the suffering Iraqi people while at the same time I look for the real punishement for the butcher of Baghdad."

I do as well. I look for punishement against the butcher of Baghdad. Not, the butchering of Baghdad.

[Uvas]

I must say that many people are in ignorance of the carnage the U.S. has handed the country of Iraq.

It is estimated that 500,000 Iraqis will die from our "shock and awe" campaign. That's right, a cool half MILLION people in a little over a week! All in the name of getting those biologicals that the U.S. GAVE to Iraq...I've seen the CDC info that documents the transfers. It names West Niles, Bubonic Plague, Anthrax, and Smallpox. They were given to Saddam back when the U.S. was backing him during that Iraq/Iran war. If you search publications like Wall Street Journal, you will find articles from the 1980's stating what a stand-up guy Saddam is....our "Man Of The Year" for Christ's sake.

[Thermodyne]

Wanna see what we are bombing Iraq with today?

http://globalsecurity.org/military/o...art-of-war.htm

[Thermodyne]

Hmm....
___________________________________

The Sunday Mail March 16, 2003

Iraqi Tyrant Prepared To Unleash Hell

In-Depth Coverage

By Steve Mckenzie

SADDAM could deliberately provoke a nuclear attack on Baghdad in a doomsday scenario being scrutinised by US generals.

They fear the Iraqi tyrant could launch chemical weapons at Israel to spark a terrifying retaliation on his own people.

Thousands of Iraqis would die, but Saddam reckons the world would be appalled and demand an immediate cease-fire.

British and US troops would also be targeted with al-Samoud missiles armed with chemical warheads.

American military analyst John Pike said: "A nuclear attack against Baghdad would outrage world opinion. International and public pressure would be so great it would stop the war.

"Saddam, of course, would be tucked away somewhere safe and nowhere near downtown Baghdad."

America threatened to attack Iraq with a nuclear bomb if it used chemical weapons in the 1991 Gulf War.

Pike said: "The Gulf War was an excellent example of how weapons of mass destruction work as a deterrent.

"But this time the deterrent has already failed. The US are not deterred from attacking Iraq by what residual chemical and biological weapons it has."

He added: "Saddam will use these weapons because he has nothing to lose."

Pike, who heads security think tank Globalsecurity, warns that Saddam will launch a strike similar to Vietnam's Tet Offensive - but with weapons of mass destruction. The Tet offensive was a massive surprise attack in 1968,when 80,000 North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops struck at towns across South Vietnam.

Pike said: "Saddam will launch chemical attacks the moment he thinks the war will start.

"He will strike at Kuwait with al-Samoud and fire Scuds on Israel.

"Saddam will try to inflict large casualties on American and British troops in the style of the Tet Offensive.

"I think America is gambling that Iraq's weapons are ineffectual and that the regular soldiers will stay in their garrisons and Republican Guard put up a fight for a few days."

Experts say Saddam will resort to medieval tactics and use the environment against the hi- tech weaponry of America and Britain.

Refugees who have fled Baghdad claim large ditches filled with oil have been dug around the city. They will be set alight to throw up a curtain of flames and thick black smoke. Land around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers could be flooded to bog down tanks.

The tactic was used during the eight-year Iran-Iraq war and saw hundreds of Iranians trapped and killed.

If he doesn't succeed in getting Baghdad nuked, Saddam is set to turn the city into a bloody battleground.

Pike said: "Baghdad would become Grozny or Stalingrad - pick any urban warfare nightmare of modern times."

Saddam, who uses body doubles, may have already fled Baghdad to go into hiding

Pike said: "We don't know where he is. Maybe we will be hunting him like we are bin Laden.

"But Saddam is also prepared to die rather than surrender because he thinks it will make him a leader who died in victory."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright © 2003, Scottish Daily Record & Sunday Mail Ltd.

[rextorres]

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar

People can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. Tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. -HERMAN GOERING

War is also a good way to win an election

[ March 16, 2003, 19:53: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[geoschmo]

"I will give money to your family if you strap dynamite to your body and blow up innocent people." -- Sadaam Hussain

[VampiricDread]

I've been reading with some interest this thread, because I believe on hearing other people's opinions, or better, actively LISTEN before voicing my own views.

With my country active envolvement today at the 3+1 Azores Summit, against the majority of Portuguese desire for peace, I believe the time is ripe to have a contribution to your discussion.

FACTS: Saddam Hussein is a dictator, in control of 24% of the world oil reserves. His regime had weapons of mass destruction, and actively procured more, before the Gulf War. His regime is responsible for crimes against Humanity, namely gassing entire civilian populations.

DOUBTS: Iraq may or may not possess weapons of mass destruction, though it is questionable if Iraq could deploy them beyond its close neighbours. Iraq has never been known to host terrorist Groups (like Kadafi's Lybia did), though this is arguable. Iraqi people have been suffering from their regime, though the propaganda states otherwise.
Will this war against Iraq benefit anyone?

CERTAINTIES: The world economy will suffer from an armed action against Saddam's regime, prolonging the economic crisis affecting the global economy. The Iraqi people will suffer (and die) from the impending war. Many citizens from the US, UK, and possibly UN forces, plus Spanish and Portuguese will die or be targeted.

EVALUATION: Do I believe the world will be better after the war due next week? Not really.
Sure, we'll rid ourselves of Saddam (unless he is as good a mover as Bin Laden), but what about China, North Korea, Israel, etc? Will also the Western countries like the US, UK, France, Russia, etc. dump their weapons of mass destruction? Will the next move against institutionalized terrorist regimes strike Israel, North Korea, and Lybia, to name but 3 will follow swiftly? Not likely.

CONCLUSION: if you are religious, pray; if not, have hope that the Saddams, Bushes, etc. will never get to power in the future, because were all pawns in a game we cannot control. Whatever your beliefs are, let's all hope this dark period ends quickly, and Humanity learns to respect each other's life,( though I'm cynic about it).

Thank you all for your attention, and please reflect on the consequences of the actions the people we vote for Power next time you vote (if you're allowed to do it).

[DavidG]

For all those out there that are opposed to a war and are anti-Saddam I have one simple question. What do you propose to do about Saddam Hussein and his regime?