A prioritized and hopefully realistic Wish List for 2.13

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
On gaining regeneration & reinvigoration through other means:

quote:

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This is true, although many more item slots may be required for this: To substitute for not using lifedrain, you need both reinvigoration in excess of the unit's modified encumberance rating, and you need a whackload of regeneration.

Or no items slots at all, as you can gain both externally from spells, while using your slots for duelling gear.

In SC duelling, fights are typically short and brutal, so endurance in the form of perpetual reinvigoration is a nonissue. Of course, this just underscores the idea that tanks and tank-killers, are similar, yet have different requirements. A tank, being your typical SC, requires a weapon that is flexible and useful on the a variety of targets that it may encounter. A tank-killer, an anti-SC, only needs to be able to destroy tanks.

Indeed. Getting into the fight with no fatigue certainly helps (no penalties to att, deff & chance of armour piercing hit), but once you are hacking at each other it's mostly about att vs def, and damage yielded vs protection...and there are better weapons for that than the lifedraining ones, even at lower research levels.

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You are forgeting that lifedrain *cause* the fatique on the target, in addition to all other effects. That can be very significant, since for example 2 or 3 cheap banelords with wraithswords and jade armor can get fatique level on your SC thought the roof in just few turns, and than kill it. Happens all the time in MP. (and yes, I know that there are counters to it I am just giving an example)

[ July 16, 2004, 10:42: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
You are forgeting that lifedrain *cause* the fatique on the target, in addition to all other effects. That can be very significant, since for example 2 or 3 cheap banelords with wraithswords and jade armor can get fatique level on your SC thought the roof in just few turns, and than kill it. Happens all the time in MP. (and yes, I know that there are counters to it I am just giving an example) [/QB]

I am forgetting nothing.

A banelord with a wraithsword will deal 3 out of 4 times no fatigue damage to a 30 protection critter: 19+9=28+2d6 vs 30+2d6

Of course some hits might roll well and get through (assuming the banelord is not dead by then), but you are supposed to have planed for this & have your own reinvigoration countering it.

You can not claim 'multiple bane lords' as part of your argument, as those can easily be both grounded & delayed with a SoS, and bogged down with chaff.

edit: it's rather 7/10 than 3/4 if you want to nitpick, the core argument remains anyway.

[ July 16, 2004, 10:55: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

This is the classic "Will my Duel Wielding Duskdagger Jotun Jarl get killed before he kills the fully equipped Bane Lord"

The answer is the Jotun will win 90% of the time.

Why? Just because of the law of Armor Negating weapons and modestly higher strenght weilders. Duskdaggers work fine on Banelords for the same purpose since they will never fatigue out.

Lifedrain weapons are not a must, they are a generality that is good for most situations because of their benefits, but by and large you will need a swath of different weapon combinations to deal with a competant enemy, not the least of which is a different confirguration of weapons.

[NTJedi]

Would be much more helpful for the developers if someone gathered a list of all the requested changes then hold a poll where people can vote on what they want changed.
Then developers will know which changes are in high demand and which changes are in low demand. A poll would be a hundred times more efficient so the developers don't have to read hundreds of Posts.

Personally I would love to see the prize for the Arena Death Match improved... right now lots of people just ignore the event.

[Gandalf Parker]

A poll could be helpful but would have to be very carefully done. Many efforts along that line tended to be worded coser to "we the mob demand these fixes" rather than the "please and thank you consider this" that our momma taught us.

What would help, and has been done in the past but dropped by people doing it, is to collect all of the suggestions into a list. To keep the list clean and useable by the devs it should avoid too much discussion. The descripts of each item (suggestions, bugs, opinions, avoid categorizing them) could be just 6-10 words and a link to the thread where it was/is/can-be discussed. If such a list could be maintained and items added/deleted as patches come out, THAT would be a great contribution to the forum. And probably worth making sticky.

This is actually one of the most requested things by all of the developers in all of the game forums here. The discussions are great but hard to wade thru to see whether its a new topic they should add to their list. A directory of conversations would be very helpful.

[ July 16, 2004, 16:20: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
What would help, and has been done in the past but dropped by people doing it, is to collect all of the suggestions into a list. To keep the list clean and useable by the devs it should avoid too much discussion. The descripts of each item (suggestions, bugs, opinions, avoid categorizing them) could be just 6-10 words and a link to the thread where it was/is/can-be discussed. If such a list could be maintained and items added/deleted as patches come out, THAT would be a great contribution to the forum. And probably worth making sticky.

Well, since Zen's taken charge of creating/maintaining locked sticky threads on this forum, shouldn't he be the one we ask to take on this highly useful yet tedious task?

EDIT: typo

[ July 16, 2004, 16:28: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[CUnknown]

I have two questions for the more experienced players:

1) Are games often won without the use of SC's?

2) Are games often won without the use of lifedrain in any form?

If the answers are: "No, not often. You typically need SC's and/or lifedrain in order to win competitive games." Then, it seems reasonable that lifedrain (in any form) should be either nerfed or made more expensive. Doesn't everyone agree with this, even the people who are against nerfing lifedrain?

If people answer "No" to those questions, and still are against nerfing lifedrain, I'd like to hear why. In my opinion, the less viable options there are in a game, the less strategy there is. So, nerfing lifedrain in Dom2 would make other options viable, and make the game even more deep than it already is.

Now, I'm not sure if lifedrain is tyically necessary to win, so I haven't made up my mind about nerfing it yet.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

What would help, and has been done in the past but dropped by people doing it, is to collect all of the suggestions into a list. ......... A directory of conversations would be very helpful.

Sounds nice but... the problem here is some people tend to write paragraphs and paragraphs about their suggestions then others who disagree will write paragraphs and/or off-topic discussions begin. The poll is much more efficient for gathering the information where the developers won't have to spend hours reading Posts.

[Endoperez]

Most games will propably see the use of SCs. It is better to ask would the player have won the game without SC or lifedraining. Especially when lifedrain is also a spell (that can be casted from an item!) and in that case the melee-drainers would not see use. With that wording your question and interpretation (sp?) seems to be along the lines of this one, although not as strongly:

Are games won without use of elemental magics?
Are games won without Evocation spells?

If not, evocations, especially elemental ones, are obviously overpowered!

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by CUnknown:
I have two questions for the more experienced players:

1) Are games often won without the use of SC's?

2) Are games often won without the use of lifedrain in any form?

I think the answer is yes to both but then I dont particularly care. I think its only a question involving player-vs-player, on fairly small maps, and little or no diplomacy. None of which are a factor in 90% of my games.

But it doesn seem a reasonable thing to try and pin down. IF its common then it can stand some tweaking but I dont think it breaks the game. Remember that balance in Dom2 does not mean that everyone (unit, nation, god, player)can beat something, as long as SOMEONE (unit, nation, god, player) can.