New Finnish OOB

[DRG]

pdoktar said:
Great work. Thanks!!

And I did not notice the rangefinder value but at least WG unit 207 has it, but it is listed as 5. Does RF 5 represent a laser rangefinder in LAW-type weapons?

That RF 5 was put in for the last patch but we both just realized that will only work with dedicated Inf-AT units and only complicates regular infantry units that may carry those weapons so we are looking at bumping up the accuracy of the weapon itself to 15 or 20 but we are still experimenting.

Don

[Koh]

I must say, this is quite impressive. You've clearly put a lot of work in this and as far as I can tell the formations are way more accurate than in the standard OOB. I was thinking of doing one of these myself so I wouldn't have to change things manually every time I create a scenario for myself to enjoy, but with this I don't have to. Just a few questions and suggestions for the hopefully upcoming new version:

- Special Jaegers are classed as commandos, which is of course accurate, but given how they are also para trained would paratroops be a more appropriate classification? I mean as far as I know, commandos don't get the "less casualties while paradropping" bonus. And the commandos bonus for passing difficult terrain is, from what I've experienced, really not that useful.

- The infantry and jaeger (90, not 05) formations have radios way too often. The only radios they have are the FO radios and a few others in a company. Now I keep seeing radios on individual squads way too often. Is this a balancing issue?

- 95 S 58-61M platoons should actually have four apilas patrols. And speaking of APILAS patrols, the amount of APILAS and KES seem to be reversed. Shouldn't they be carrying 3 APILAS and 6 KES? Again, this seems to be a balancing issue as 6 HEAT seems to be the standard load for anti tank patrols, but wouldn't the KES rounds compensate for this?

- Also on the topic of 95 S 58-61M, I read that you are planning on adding laser range finders for 95 S 58-61Ms. However even if they would be issued those, it would be one per platoon. Both mustis having them would be somewhat wrong. But then again, most of the possible target areas would probably be pre-sighted before the battle so that wouldn't actually be so wrong.

- Infantry and Infantry Bn AT Companies lack their AAMGs. Infantry company has two, AT Company three. Adding them shouldn't upset the balance too much and would also give them some of the much needed close range anti air defence.

And as a final note, I really enjoyed the scenarios you made for this OOB. The terrain and usage of troops was amongst the most realistic ones I've seen in scenarios involving Finland.

And Jaeger Business really, really reminded me an awful lot of an attack excercise we did in the army. My money is on you based this on something you yourself did once.

Looking forward for the next version
- Koh

[Companion]

I had a peak to see what you had done because it seems every Finn interested in SP has had a hand in modifying the MBT and WW2 Finn OOBs at one time or another. I'm starting to think it's a national pastime

I think I saw a moderator in steelbeasts forum asking Finnish people the secret behind the commercial success of the armor simulation (SB Pro PE) in Finland.

So yes, I think every Finnish is a warrior and every game connected to warfare is a national pastime.


Off-topic: Zipuli, I get mauled by godlike RPGs invisible and safe in buildings almost every time I pass that cursed town in one of your SB scens: section attack.
Am I supposed to blast my way and put every townspeople into grief? Gah, those truly divine RPGs can even penetrate LEO2A4s frontally.


- Comp

[Zipuli]

Koh said:
I must say, this is quite impressive. You've clearly put a lot of work in this and as far as I can tell the formations are way more accurate than in the standard OOB. I was thinking of doing one of these myself so I wouldn't have to change things manually every time I create a scenario for myself to enjoy, but with this I don't have to. Just a few questions and suggestions for the hopefully upcoming new version:

- Special Jaegers are classed as commandos, which is of course accurate, but given how they are also para trained would paratroops be a more appropriate classification? I mean as far as I know, commandos don't get the "less casualties while paradropping" bonus. And the commandos bonus for passing difficult terrain is, from what I've experienced, really not that useful.

- The infantry and jaeger (90, not 05) formations have radios way too often. The only radios they have are the FO radios and a few others in a company. Now I keep seeing radios on individual squads way too often. Is this a balancing issue?

- 95 S 58-61M platoons should actually have four apilas patrols. And speaking of APILAS patrols, the amount of APILAS and KES seem to be reversed. Shouldn't they be carrying 3 APILAS and 6 KES? Again, this seems to be a balancing issue as 6 HEAT seems to be the standard load for anti tank patrols, but wouldn't the KES rounds compensate for this?

- Also on the topic of 95 S 58-61M, I read that you are planning on adding laser range finders for 95 S 58-61Ms. However even if they would be issued those, it would be one per platoon. Both mustis having them would be somewhat wrong. But then again, most of the possible target areas would probably be pre-sighted before the battle so that wouldn't actually be so wrong.

- Infantry and Infantry Bn AT Companies lack their AAMGs. Infantry company has two, AT Company three. Adding them shouldn't upset the balance too much and would also give them some of the much needed close range anti air defence.

And as a final note, I really enjoyed the scenarios you made for this OOB. The terrain and usage of troops was amongst the most realistic ones I've seen in scenarios involving Finland.

And Jaeger Business really, really reminded me an awful lot of an attack excercise we did in the army. My money is on you based this on something you yourself did once.

Looking forward for the next version
- Koh

Thanks, I really have put some time and thought on this one...

-Good point about the specjgrs... I really haven't used them so they had less attention from me
-The makers stated that "radio" is used not only for the radio itself, but also to represent certain leadership attributes... So the current numbers are there to "simulate" good leadership instead of having a radio in your back. In one of the first versions I had realistic radio numbers, but changed when I read about the full meaning of "radio"
-About APILAS -patrols, yes, it's a balancing issue. All finnish infantry RPG -numbers are what I find best balance between "what they really carry" and "what they have with them". I think an example is needed here: An APILAS patrol usually would actually carry 3 APILAS and 3 KES, as more than that quite well immobilizes you. But the rest of the weapons are somewhere close by where you will get them quickly -> in attack they are in the APC/IFV or truck that moves with you, or with the company's supply-platoon (that the game doesn't model) that moves with the company's attack. In prep defence there are the ammo "foxholes" and so on. So a patrol has more ammo ready in few seconds than they actually carry on their backs. I use 6 APILAS and 3 KES as it's the APILAS that is the main weapon and KES would be most likely in the sections rather than the "mules" carrying them APILAS and AT-mines etc.
-About the Musti LRF, it adds a lot to the price of the unit (my current version in development has them) but also makes first-shot hit propability a lot higher - as it should be as those weapons are not (anymore) used in attack but rather in prep defence where ranges are pre-measured either by the weapon crew or the supporting FOs. Also now that Musti is making a come back in the training I suppose LRFs are not out of the question. Anyways they also can be understood more of the defence preparations than physical LRF in hand of the weapon commander...
-True about the AAMGs, I've added and deleted them every now and then because I cannot decide which is the best way, as especially the jaeger formations (org 90-91) do have them, but wether they are installed on the Pasi's or mounts depends on mission, leader, situation etc. -> I will look into this
-"My money is on you based this on something you yourself did once." Money well placed

After a longer pause again, now that v.4.0 is out, I will update the OOB with some stuff, including anything v4.0 has added - I haven't yet installed the newest version... Downloading now.

Zip

PS. I will also take a critical look at the radios, again as I noticed while playing that there is a big change in how the game now plays!

[Koh]

When you put it that way, the amount of APILAS does make sense. I had something like that in my mind when I was trying to justify a two-man patrol carrying six APILAS in the standard OOB.

On the topic of laser rangefinders, they definitely are not out of the question at least. The Musti companies currently trained have one LRF assigned to them. Giving them to both Mustis would probably be the only reasonably simple way to simulate their use in pre-sighting targets. The older Musti units would probably have to do without LRFs.

Oh and one more thing about Mustis. The OOB currently has their max range as 700 meters which is probably what it was in the standard OOB too, while mil.fi lists the effective range as 1000 meters.

And a few words about XP/morale bonuses. This probably doesn't affect gameplay too much, but PzJaeg/Mech seems to be missing the standard +2/+1 bonus you've given to operational units. Also sissi troops have a bonus of +10/+3 while recce units have +3/+3. Given how the sissi and recce guys are pretty much identical in training, maybe they'd deserve a similar bonus? And then there's the Coastal Jaegers who according to themselves at least are some sort of an elite unit. And apparently according to regular navy infantry are quite the opposite

And for some reason the Artillery Bn and Artillery Bty have a +5/+5 bonus. This was present in the standard OOB too and I have no idea what it is supposed to represent.

Oh and one more thing. I'm not sure if you've heard about the somewhat new Special Frontier Jaegers. I guess adding them to the OOB would be somewhat problematic as their organization is probably not public at the moment. For more info: Raja.fi


Keep up the good work, I'm eagerly waiting for a new version for SPMBT v 4.0. I'm holding off updating the main game before I can get a new version of your OOB
- Koh

[Zipuli]

-Musti range is same as default OOB, this is also true to other weapons, such as APILAS, KES, etc. etc. not to "break" the game's "inbuilt balance" (french Apilas has same range as Finnish etc.)
-I have given the +2/+1 not to all operational units, but only readiness brigade units. Jaeger Brigades (90/91) are also operational units, as were the armoured brigades. I gave it only because readiness brigades have a lot higher amount of professional soldiers and also the troops are the youngest (=less time from conscript training period) and ought to be (knocking wood) most important troops in future refresher training
-I may tone down the sissi's bonuses to match recce, not the other way round... If I change something.
-Coastal Jaegers say they are an elite because they do something that no one else does, speak Swedish I really don't see a reason to promote them, maybe in modern times give them +2/+1 as they seem to adapt to similar system as the readiness brigades when it comes to troops' age and number of professionals...
-Arty bonuses came with the game, propably to represent the well known Finnish Artillery accuracy/firing method training (that has to do with the whole artillery system) - my OOB also brings the quite unique FO system to the game, at least in some sence...
-SFJ's, heard of them, seen them in action too... I think they go well under both sissi and spec jaeger, but do not deserve units of their own, as their organization is not public. They're same sort of special unit as Special Jaeger Battalion (except spec jaegers are NOT conscripts, like paras, divers and SFJ's), but instead of jumping out of perfectly fine planes and choppers, they may do more long range recce -oriented stuff?
-Don't hold your breath mate, next version may take a while. I am currently very busy with real life stuff and also (when I got time) trying to experiment with "realistic-radio-numbers" (tm) for the OOB and see how the game reacts to that. If you want to be of help, please do browse through the text files in the latest version and fix errors and typos, which are plenty , or give your e-mail address to me and playtest the current version I have now. That version has most of the stuff OOB-wise done (plus currently has the radio test going), but I have yet to test it and finish all the other stuff (texts etc.).

Zip

[Koh]

- I noticed that in the last version of your OOB only 05 Brigades had the morale/xp bonuses, but in the current version Jaeger Brigade 90/91s and Navy Jaegers have them too. From what you wrote I can only assume this was unintentional. The 05 Brigades probably deserve their bonuses, but what about infantry formations. In all honesty, most of them would probably deserve some penalties. While at least some of the intantry battlegroups are somewhat recently trained (I know a few guys who were trained to become an infantry BG last year during their conscript service), most of the infantry formations are probably +35 reservists with 2 professional soldiers/battalion.
- While the arty bonuses probably do represent the fast response times and accuracy of the Finnish artillery, it leaves me somewhat puzzled as Heavy Art Bn and Bty and all mortar formations lack the same bonuses that they'd probably deserve.

As much as I'd like to help more, I'm really busy myself with several exams coming up fast. I'm just going to have to settle with bothering you here occasionally
- Koh

[Zipuli]

So far most the above fixes etc. is true. In addition I have:
-Given Marksman (ItPsv 90) the new icon, that is used in the default OOB (finally, thanks devs!!)
-Given NLAW teams LRF stat of 22 (see post NLAW on this forum to see why) - vision remains the same 15 I used so far
-NLAW is no longer in same category as AT-patrols, but in same as Bn ATGM-teams... (in 2009 when you buy a Bn ATGM unit, you get to choose NLAW or Spike) There has not yet been any information of how the NLAWs will be used in Organization, except that they are for operational units. Having them on Company level (as in previous version) seems very unlikely when considering the NLAW deal moneywise (not THAT many units!!!)
-XA-180 and 185 with no AAMGs, as the AAMG is the weapon of the unit the XA is transporting, not integral with the vehicles! (example, Jaeger platoon 90/91 with 3 vehicles has only 2 AAMGs, so 1 XA-18X has no AAMG on it)
-modded BMP-2 has no more extra armour and can swim... It still has TIS and new AP round (APDS)
-the "what if" C-130 was removed, as the Finnish Goverment decided to participate in C-17 deal with some 14 countris instead of buying a plane or two of its own. As these birds are used by Finns 4 days a year, I've not included them in the OOB as heavy transport as in chrisis, what are the odds to get them into use? lol
-Spike teams are now so, that Spike MR is battalion level asset, LR is Bde level and ER is Navy anti-shipping missile...
-any Bn/Bde ATGM platoon -formations all have now 4 launchers instead of the old 2 launchers.
-NSV AAMG will have 1 better RF and FC from 96 onwards
-AMOS from 2009 onwards, as seeing them operational this year seems very unlikely!
-Leopard 2R naming is now "Leo 2R Plow" and "Leo 2R Dozer" to clarify it
-Added 155 K 83-97 from 1998 onwards - this one can fire NATO munitions too, which means ICM. K 83 can no longer fire ICM. K 83-97 / K 98 ammo loads changed
-AMV APC now with AAMG (2008 onwards) and AGL (2010 onwards) -> this is available in Jaeger plt/co 05+ -formation... platoon has 3 AMVs, 2 with AAMG and 1 with AGL (similar to US stryker -platoon, which may be possible here too, who knows?)
-removed RK riflegrenade from all units...
-coast jaegers available from 1961 onwards (they started in early 1960s just like the paratroopers)
-MI-8 service date expanded to 2015 as due to NH deal delays, MI-8 expire date was moved forth by repairing at St.Petersburgh
-SpecJaegers now para-trained
-biggest change, which I am most likely including, is the "realistic radio numbers", that reduces the chance to have radios for infantry units DRAMATICALLY!! Only exeptions are the newest formations (readiness bdes, mech BG, modern coast jaegers, spec ops) that all have radio 90. Most infantry units now have radio 0 (zero, nada), as FDF traditionally has had radios for infantry so, that maybe company CO has one, and that's it, next ones you find in battalion. This of course does not affect FO's they have radios naturally. BUT this means a jaeger company in 1995 has maybe a few radios in the Pasis (as they have bigger % of having a radio) and 1 in each FO section and that's it! This will affect the playing style in a very realistic way, as now you need to keep your units "in contact" by having them closer to each other, just like is done in reality. If you disperse your infantry units too much, you'll notice a dramatic decrease in fighting ability especially when receiving suppression. You should notice the difference very well, when you next take a Jaeger company 05 in modern times, as each section has a radio. Some units, such as early pzjaegers and all sissi/recce units have a better chance for having a radio, but they are "not given out like candy"

EDIT:
-also added SBJ units (special border jaegers) as semi-specops (Something like paratroops without para-training). These are the Border Guard's specially trained troops that would most likely be important prior to chrisis in the border areas, and also in war time they would have specialized missions, such as raiding and recce in those areas of the country. This category is also used for border guard's readiness unit (the cutthroat -guys with G36C). There'll be few different weapon choises for these guys, as it seems to be mission specific; RKs with optics, G36, PKM, KP2000 (MP5), KRPIST 2002, KES, Mines/Explosives...
-Will also take a closer look at all "spec ops" units bonuswise etc. (paras, divers, specjaegers, SBJaegers)

Now when will we have bridge layer equipment in SPMBT as I just saw our newest Leguan -toys

Zip

PS. True about the infantry units, but gotta remember that 35 seems to be now the age above which you may no longer get a war time duty in the frontline (???) - The "reserve inf" units are to present that old and untrained lot. Also got to remember that even with only maybe 1 professional soldier in a battalion (CO), the skill level of the reserve officers is very variable, from excellent to pure ****, with mediocre reserve officer being actually quite good at his game, especially if (when) he gets to train for a while after being called to arms and before thrown into fire...

[Zipuli]

More changes:

-removed off-map AMOS, available only on-map now
-new AMOS picture from field tests (old one was either a very early production or mock-up pic - though not a bad one)
-changed AMOS ammo load to correct (65), and crew to correct (4), and size to 5 (was 4), which dropped prices to 141, 154 (AMOS, AMOS STRIX)
-AMV APC (with AAMG) new picture ("turret" looks different in the production version vs. old pic that was prototype)
-added Fort "23 ItK 61 Fort", that are mostly used to cover the fixed Coast Artillery
-new 100 56 TK -image (was 130mm image)
-Bn AT Platoon added with BVs
-ATGM Company formation added with wheeled APCs, BVs or no transport. This is either independent ATGM company or Bde ATGM Coy (TOW equiped)
-Bde ATGM Company added for org 05
-AA Battery 61 and 61/95 added (9 x 23mm AA)
-NLAW platoons added (XA, BV, CV, foot)
-removed exp and mor bonuses from artillery formations
-tweaked exp and mor bonuses for special forces, sissi

All in all it's almost ready... testing, testing. If someone would like to help testing, PM me your e-mail. All help warmly welcome!!

Zip

[Koh]

I hope I'm not too late with this to make it to the new version, but since the new radio system seems to affect the gameplay somewhat significantly, I think it's worth mentioning that at least the newer Musti platoons have radio equipment of similar quantity as the Brigade 05s. They have squad level radios for coordinating the platoon's fire. I guess this could be perhaps most easily represented by giving the LRF equipped 95 S 58-61M squads a high chance of radios as well?