Guide: MA Oceania - OMG, I think I've done it

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Baalz

To be sure there's different ways to play most nations and I wouldn't begin to try and convince you that what you're suggesting could not also be effective, but I think we've got two different philosophies.

Repeat after me, Baalz - "I am sure that you can make that effective if you try, but I am also sure that what I described is effective, but I also found it interesting enough and fun enough to write an actual guide for it".



I am going to put together an SP test to goof around with them, now that you finally got around to this. I'll do a bit of a different pretender, but I like your angle a lot, so it'll just be stylistic differences.

I do think it wasn't stated strongly enough how much you want a good land holding early on, so that you have area to site search, and for Blood Hunting before you intentionally open up a land war. I think key to not being pushed straight into the water again, is to have a decent holding, so it's not just "1, 2, you're out!", but also that they know you are strong enough that even if they push you off, you will harass then and drag them down for the rest of the game. I don't think a lot of people understand that attacking an aquatic nation's land provinces without a clear plan of how to kill them off ultimately just ruins both nations' chances, for little gain.

[Amorphous]

I have used Transformation to good effect, as well.

According to the manual there is a 20% chance of feeblemind or death, but to be honest I have had much better results than that.

In my last game - playing MA Man - I used it extensively with my crones (20+ times or so) and only had 2 of them feebleminded and no death at all. And this was with neutral luck-scales in normal, where Transformation costs 8 nature gems.

Thing is, if you have a sizeable contingent of N3 mages that benefit from Transformation, you probably will be able to summon Faerie Queens eventually, so feeblemindedness is not that much of a problem, as it can be healed. And, as Baalz mentioned, the deaths are very much mitigated by the fact that the mages that do not die are upkeep-free.


This does not mean that using Transformation is always a good idea, but as far as I can see Baalz uses it with good reason here. Oceania needs better magic on land, and Transformation goes a long way towards providing it.



Last, but not least: Thank you for a very good guide Baalz!

[Baalz]

[quote=JimMorrison;675603]

Originally Posted by Baalz

I think key to not being pushed straight into the water again, is to have a decent holding, so it's not just "1, 2, you're out!", but also that they know you are strong enough that even if they push you off, you will harass then and drag them down for the rest of the game. I don't think a lot of people understand that attacking an aquatic nation's land provinces without a clear plan of how to kill them off ultimately just ruins both nations' chances, for little gain.

Yes, to me, the ideal situation is to make the other guy look at it like this:

I've only got 3 land provinces I can take before I have to go into the water to pursue this war.

Unless I'm prepared to go underwater and dig him out (!) the best case scenario is I take those three provinces without much fight but then have to defend my whole coast for a very long time while being harassed by sirens, raiders, and rituals. More likely it's going to be a bloody fight for those three provinces.

Alternatively Oceana is offering me a nice NAP and peace of mind to not have to worry about defending my long coast. Plus he's got the paths to forge a couple items I need and might be useful to help me in a fight with our mutual neighbor...

I usually try to expand with this in mind, and play my diplomacy that way. 3-4 provinces on this coast, 2 more over there, and grab that island nobody else wanted anyway. Now, wait for a good opportunity to join a war against somebody who's doing a good job of loosing already...

[Humakty]

I have massively used transformation with pangaea on Glory of the Gods (so it was really a huge number of pans), and even if I don't recommend using it on a mage having rare randoms, like the ones who get the 10 % ones, it is surely a good thing to do on your every day mage.
The 'every day' of pans being bazillions of non sacred upkeep.

Once you get going, it's really hard to stop yourself casting it on each of those gold robbing bastards.

...very good guide Baalz

[Baalz]

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

First, loved your. Big fan.
Fourth, have you cast wind ride recently. Last I knew it was worthless as it couldn't transport a unit further then 1 province. This is the second time you've mentioned it recently and I can't be sure you are using the same spells I'm using.

Full disclosure, I haven't actually done this in practice, just seemed pretty good in theory reading the spell description. If it doesn't work as described then this might not work well. Oh well, was a side bonus strategy anyway, you really took the air magic for fog warriors and boosters.

Were you casting it at size 2, non-ethereal, non-earth mages?

[thejeff]

On the other hand, if wind ride does only move units 1 province, it's still a good assassination spell on air-breathers on the coast.

[cleveland]

Awesome stuff, as usual.

I just finished subbing for an MA Oceania position which shared the water with R'lyeh. I completely agree with everything you've said - if R'lyeh doesn't exist. But since it happens, here are a few comments to complement your extraordinary guide:

If R'lyeh is in the game, buckle up. After turn 25, they will dominate you, so kill them immediately.

Picture this: your Grand Army is swimming to meet the Alien Army. But just before the confrontation, 6 of your 10 commanders get zapfried by mindhunts, including the stealty S1 Spectre that was protecting them. So you arrive at the battlefield at half strength, across from a huge hoard of mindless chaff...

Turn 1: a half dozen ichtycentaurs get their minds enslaved, 2 dozen first strikes are spent killing them, as are a few errant numbness-es. Turn 2: repeat, only now the chaff have engaged you.........Eventually your exhausted ichtycentaurs break and retreat into enemy territory, since Imprint Souls can target underwater provinces.

I recommend:
(A) Surge out the the water looking with the singular goal of finding indy astral mage provinces. Forge swim trunks and institute the buddy system.
(B) Beg/Borrow/Steal all the Starshine Skullcaps you can. Put them on A and start every party with Antimagic.
(C) Beg/Borrow/Steal all the Amulets of Antimagic you can. Use 16+4=20MR Bishop Fish to lead your underwater armies, lest you arrive at the field without any troops. Make Lead Shields if necessary.
(D) Get Foul Vapors immediately...I know Alteration is awesome for Oceania, but you MUST get this spell before R'lyeh gets Enslave Mind. Unintuitively, Foul Vapors is castable underwater, and you can cast Poison Ward to mitigate the damage to your troops, he can't. Splurge those Earth gems on some un-mind-burnable, regenerating, poison-immune, zero-encumberance claymen to bolster your frontline.
(E) You need Bloodstones badly, as your Mermages can't wear Earth Boots underwater. Make it a priority, as you can then use Summon Earthpower and get Strength of Giants/Legions of Steel/Weapons of Sharpness underwater. Plus you can then summon Troll Kings.
(F) 20 PD in each retreat route.
(G) Don't cast Shark Attack in round 1. Script your Sirens for (Summon Water Power)(hold)(hold)(hold)(Shark Attack) so that the Enslave Minders are too exhausted for sustained enslavment of your sharks.

One last thought: Sailor's Death (W3, AOE=1, 14+ AN damage) works underwater against troops that are there by unnatural means (i.e. Sea King's Goblet, Wave Breaker, etc)...Summon Waterpower makes every mage you have W3, and most get Eagle Eyes...exploit this.

Again, great stuff.

[Dedas]

Great stuff yourself Cleveland! Have a beer!

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by cleveland

Awesome stuff, as usual.

I just finished subbing for an MA Oceania position which shared the water with R'lyeh. I completely agree with everything you've said - if R'lyeh doesn't exist. But since it happens, here are a few comments to complement your extraordinary guide:

If R'lyeh is in the game, buckle up. After turn 25, they will dominate you, so kill them immediately.

Picture this: your Grand Army is swimming to meet the Alien Army. But just before the confrontation, 6 of your 10 commanders get zapfried by mindhunts, including the stealty S1 Spectre that was protecting them. So you arrive at the battlefield at half strength, across from a huge hoard of mindless chaff...

Turn 1: a half dozen ichtycentaurs get their minds enslaved, 2 dozen first strikes are spent killing them, as are a few errant numbness-es. Turn 2: repeat, only now the chaff have engaged you.........Eventually your exhausted ichtycentaurs break and retreat into enemy territory, since Imprint Souls can target underwater provinces.

I recommend:
(A) Surge out the the water looking with the singular goal of finding indy astral mage provinces. Forge swim trunks and institute the buddy system.
(B) Beg/Borrow/Steal all the Starshine Skullcaps you can. Put them on A and start every party with Antimagic.
(C) Beg/Borrow/Steal all the Amulets of Antimagic you can. Use 16+4=20MR Bishop Fish to lead your underwater armies, lest you arrive at the field without any troops. Make Lead Shields if necessary.
(D) Get Foul Vapors immediately...I know Alteration is awesome for Oceania, but you MUST get this spell before R'lyeh gets Enslave Mind. Unintuitively, Foul Vapors is castable underwater, and you can cast Poison Ward to mitigate the damage to your troops, he can't. Splurge those Earth gems on some un-mind-burnable, regenerating, poison-immune, zero-encumberance claymen to bolster your frontline.
(E) You need Bloodstones badly, as your Mermages can't wear Earth Boots underwater. Make it a priority, as you can then use Summon Earthpower and get Strength of Giants/Legions of Steel/Weapons of Sharpness underwater. Plus you can then summon Troll Kings.
(F) 20 PD in each retreat route.
(G) Don't cast Shark Attack in round 1. Script your Sirens for (Summon Water Power)(hold)(hold)(hold)(Shark Attack) so that the Enslave Minders are too exhausted for sustained enslavment of your sharks.

One last thought: Sailor's Death (W3, AOE=1, 14+ AN damage) works underwater against troops that are there by unnatural means (i.e. Sea King's Goblet, Wave Breaker, etc)...Summon Waterpower makes every mage you have W3, and most get Eagle Eyes...exploit this.

Again, great stuff.

Really really great stuff. Makes me excited to try it.

[Baalz]

A couple good points there Cleveland, particularly about Shark attack and Sailor's death which I didn't know. I will say though that I don't think R'yleh will quite dominate you if you play this right and make the appropriate preparations for a mid/late game fight with the squids. To be sure, R'yleh is one of the more powerful nations in the game and will seldom be a pushover for any nation to fight, but you do have some powerful tools at your disposal using this setup I outlined.

1) Fighting R'yleh you don't want to use ichtycentaurs, use the Oceanian Triton supported by mindless/high MR summons (yeah leviathans!). Those enslave minds/soul slay/mind blasts are now targeting your 12 MR, 10 gold troops who are *very* tough chaff when buffed with mass protection and possibly fog warriors. Using ice pebble staffs and support mages (frozen heart, bone melter, drain life, etc.) you should be able to easily handle the small numbers of elite units R'yleh fields (meteor guards, void summons). Enslave mind is a lot less scary when instead of 100 centaurs you're fielding 400 tritons who have a nice unbuffed 12 MR (ok, probably 11 in a magic-1 environment), flanked by swarms of bone fiends, and remember you're countering with powerful spells of your own. If he's dropping mind hunt and enslave mind (evocation & thuaum), you should be matching with polymorphs & shark attack (alteration & conj)

2) You've got a stealthy astral pretender from turn 1 and if you've got a S1 specter you damn sure better slap two boosters on him. The thing about having *stealthy* astral mages is they work as a wonderful mind hunt deterrent far above the actual number of territories they're in. Think about it, if you're playing R'yleh and you know I've got some unknown number of astral mages hiding in my territory (because you've been feebleminded a couple times targeting apparently "safe" targets) are you likely to drop 10 mind hunts on the high value army that I'm very interested in protecting? Even if I *don't* have a mage there you're likely to assume I do. Remember, your opponent has *no idea* how many stealthy astral mages you've got covering you or where they are, only that that number is greater than 0 and he's got no way to recover from feeblemind. And of course you're not just bluffing, you should stick a specter/your pretender sneaking around with the grand army you really don't want mind hunted.

3) Indie astral mages are certainly a boon, but one of the tenants of this guide is that astral mages are too vital to count on finding indies. Your pretender gives you astral from turn 1. Specters are an early focus for your death economy, and you're also optionally funneling water gems into Unfrozen - you should have a handful of astral mages to work with even if you can't find any indie ones. I certainly don't disagree that you should keep your eyes peeled for indies, but they're not critical. You should be able to forge as many amulets of antimagic as you want, drop anti-magic, and stop mind hunts dead without counting on luck. If you don't have enough astral mages for what you need, well you now know what the top priority is for all your death and water gems.

Yes, I do believe I described blood stones as unlocking the second holy grail for MA Oceana. Couldn't agree more. If you need the extra level of earth that you lose from not being able to wear earth boots underwater use one of your E/S specters to forge a crystal shield.

Foul vapors I don't know if I agree with. Certainly it can be made to be effective, but I don't see it as being a top priority target. It works too slow, requires combos to work well, and still probably will result in friendly casualties until you start getting the real powerful combos (large numbers of poison immune troops, mass regeneration, etc). Certainly it's something you'll want to pick up at some point, but I wouldn't personally drop some of the other stuff I suggest to get it.