PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.

[geoschmo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
One thing to remember about range is you must have sensors/experiance for it to be an advantage. At range 10 any standard weapon has 0% to hit if no other modifiers come into play. Also as pointed out below, he who fires/hits first usually wins. I'd rather have a hip with a lot of PPB's than a few WMG once you start taking damage. All in all I think PPB's are the best direct fire weapon to base your fleet around but you definately need variety to win consistently.

---

Correct, but the same penalties apply to the PBB. All other things being equal, if one ship has greater range in weapons, they will win the majority of the time.

I don't like WMG either personally. And I agree with you about PBB's up through the mid game. But they get passed up later on. And you will too if you stop researching weapons and stay with PBB V's for the rest of the game. Unless you can beat your enemies before they can get the better weapons.

Geoschmo

[Nitram Draw]

The thing with the PPB's and range is that in order to fire you must get within their range, 6 I think, so all direct fire weapons will have a chance to hit. This is where the other modifiers come into play. It's rare by mid-game not to have sensors, ECM, experiance etc. Those are worth more than the weapon type, IMO. You need some direct fire weapon that fires every turn. I usually pick one early and develop it to the max then when I have all the other thing I deem necessary, ECM, shields, armor etc., I research another direct fire weapon. I think it is a waste to research two direct fire weapons at the same time. There's to many other areas that need to be researched.

[Phoenix-D]

Nitam, be aware that WMGs have a +30% to hit bonus. So at the same range as the PPBs, they have a significantly better chance to hit.

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

I agree completely. You are better off picking a particular weapon and researching that as far as you can in most cases. And due to my testing in regards to this thread, and also my recent ingame experience, PBB's will no doubt be a priority for me in future games, if for no other reason than their relative cheapness in research.

I was simply disagreeing with the belief stated earlier in this thread that once you had PBB, you didn't need anything else. That is simply not true based on the facts.

One problem though with researching the PBB up to level five though, is that if your opponent is researching APB while you are researching PBB, you will have the advantage early on, but if you can't capitalize on that advantage, before he gets to the upper levels of APB, and starts beating your PBB ships, you will be WAY behind the curve. You will have to start over on the APB branch and have a long way to go to catch up.

Geoschmo

[Nitram Draw]

WMG are my 'big gun' for planet defense, especially when using the WP range modifier mod. They can almost reach the edge of the board. With their built in to hit and a sensor they pound atacking fleets. I put them on some ships, to target planets and bases at range, but I don't build entire fleets of them. The WMG does have a long reload time. A sh*tload of LC's with direct fire weapons can take out a few DN's with WMG's. Plus the WMG can't target fighters or Sat's. That's why you need a mixed force. Anyone can design a ship to counter a specific ship. The trick is to design a fleet to counter another fleet.

[Rich04]

I also like WMG's. IMHO they are the best basic tech LR direct fire weapon. That +30 bonus goes a long way in scoring more hits at range. They are best used in combos with other weapons/ships.

[Dragonlord]

Cool, I got another active thread going
OK time for next replies:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
WMG are my 'big gun' for planet defense, especially when using the WP range modifier mod. They can almost reach the edge of the board. With their built in to hit and a sensor they pound atacking fleets. I put them on some ships, to target planets and bases at range, but I don't build entire fleets of them. The WMG does have a long reload time. A sh*tload of LC's with direct fire weapons can take out a few DN's with WMG's. Plus the WMG can't target fighters or Sat's. That's why you need a mixed force. Anyone can design a ship to counter a specific ship. The trick is to design a fleet to counter another fleet.

---

All very true, and I haven't posted my fleets yet. I don't like weapon platforms myself anymore.., yes the large platforms with WMG's are good, if you have enough of them on your planet. But the research needed to get the large platforms, plus the build time for getting enough platforms built, is too expensive. I'd rather use all that to build more ships. Alas, but in my experience in the mid to late game the *only* viable planet defense is...ships. Many ships. Which is why I play merchant races, for the reduced maintenance. I tried the strategy of sending my fleet out to attack the enemy systems while my own close-to-core or core systems are defended with sats, fighters, and many WP's. Didn't work. If an enemy fleet (say 25 ships upwards) slips by into your system they'll destroy anything you have there.

quote:

---

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I agree completely. You are better off picking a particular weapon and researching that as far as you can in most cases. And due to my testing in regards to this thread, and also my recent ingame experience, PBB's will no doubt be a priority for me in future games, if for no other reason than their relative cheapness in research.

I was simply disagreeing with the belief stated earlier in this thread that once you had PBB, you didn't need anything else. That is simply not true based on the facts.

One problem though with researching the PBB up to level five though, is that if your opponent is researching APB while you are researching PBB, you will have the advantage early on, but if you can't capitalize on that advantage, before he gets to the upper levels of APB, and starts beating your PBB ships, you will be WAY behind the curve. You will have to start over on the APB branch and have a long way to go to catch up.

Geoschmo

---

Ah, correction: I never meant that to say that after the PPB you can stop weapons research entirely, I'm just saying that you get them early and then keep em, none of the high tech weapons eclipse them. But I DO use other weapons..(besides PD): Against organic races I add some Null Space to the mix, and against a race who has been around long enough to have phased shields I add shield depleters.

I'm not surprised that a ship with APB XII beats a PPB V ship, but I'll do all I can to destroy an empire before they get to APB XII, not that hard with the early lead the PPB gives me. (I assume you meant Large mount, not heavy) And I think my PPB ships do better in fleets, so let me post a fleet.
Let's call the design I posted "Killer".

In the mid-game Alpha Fleet will have:
10 Killers
3 PD ships
Enough sweepers to sweep 100 mines
3-4 cruisers with Solar collectors III.
1-2 cruisers with two Repair Bays III and a Hyper Optics sensor.


PD ship: Light Cruiser
Standard stuff (engines, sails etc)
7 PD V
ECM III
1 PPB V
1 Multiplex IV (is this needed on a PD ship?)
1 Combat sensors 3 (Is this needed on a PD ship?)
6 Armor III
1 Stealth Armor III

In the late game Alpha Fleet will be a bit different, same support stuff as above but different attack ships. (also the fleet is more likely to be 40-50 ships, but with same ratio of attack/PD/Support ships)
So lets call this Beta fleet. The attack component will consist of designs Killer II and Nullifier. (I'll use battlecruisers as an example, the same principle can be applied to Battleships).
Mix (against non-organics)
8x Killer II
2x Nullifier

Killer II
Battlecruiser, space 600.
Bridge, 2 LS, 2 CQ
6 JP engines
Solar Sail 3
ECM 3, Sensors 3, Multiplex 4
1 Shield depleter V (large mount)
5 large mounted PPB V
1 PD V
5 Armor III
1 Stealth Armor 3 (for defense bonus)
2 Shield V

Nullifier:
Battle Cruiser
Battlecruiser, space 600.
Bridge, 2 LS, 2 CQ
6 JP engines
Solar Sail 3
ECM 3, Sensors 3, Multiplex 4
2 large mounted Null space III
2 large mounted PPB
1 PD V
1 Stealth Armor 3 (for defense bonus)
1 Scattering Armor 3
2 Shield V
1 Self destruct
1 Armor III

[Dragonlord]

Oh by the way, I did not know that WMG's get a to-hit bonus. Where can I see that? Do other weapons get that too and how do I find out about it?

[Rich04]

Components.txt is where you want to look Dragonlord. Weapon Modifier entry for the weapon.
There are three weapons that have built in to hit bonuses.
PD +70
WMG +30
HEM +30 (crystal)
It would be nice if they were listed when you look at the component. Some modders have done this.


[This message has been edited by Rich04 (edited 04 September 2001).]

[Stone Mill]

A few times I was ready to jump in and agree that PPB are the top weapon... but I now hesitate.

I do very much agree that they are way too inexpensive and disproportionate, however.

I will say I have learned quite a bit from this thread, many thanks! I may have to put some of this to the test...