Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I know myrmidon are just (the "just" part, more or less) ant people, but I think they're also supposed to be the ultimate soldiers in terms of discipline. I mean, they're crazy, you tell one of them to fight the whole Abysian army, and he'll be out there. You tell on to jump, he asks you how high, what angle, and whether or not to take wind resistance into account.

I thought it could be something unique about myrmidon, to set them apart from all the other elite, slow infantry.

Just a thought.

"myrmidon A faithful follower who carries out orders without question." - Dictionary.com

And as Scott rightly pointed out, they're half-ant half-man. Thus formerly mindless beings that were given a brain. An interesting way to simulate this would be to give them 30 morale.

And, since ants come with some natural protection, probably raise the Myrmidons' base prot high enough to give them the natural equivalent to a 'full leather' or 'full ring mail' armor - that should be around ~10 I guess.

That should be enough to make them a very distinctive unit on their own.

[HJ]

Slightly OT:
In Greek myth, Myrmidons (from Greek myrmex = ant) were the people of Aiacos, father of Pelleus and grandfather of Achilles. Aiacos was one of Zeus' favorite sons, and he asked his father to give him a people that are as dilligent as the ants he saw climbing on the tree nearby, so Zeus turned those ants into men. They are not halfmen, just men who are attributed the qualities of ants (dilligence, bravery, unity, etc.).

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by HJ:
They are not halfmen, just men who are attributed the qualities of ants (dilligence, bravery, unity, etc.).

Yep, I know the story - my house is filled with essays on mythologies from all around the world from cellar to roof!

I didn't meant halfmen in the sense that minotaurs are half-bull half-man in their physical shape. Just that, as former ants that were turned into men, they might share attributes from both species.

[HotNifeThruButr]

nit picky

[HJ]

If that bothers you, you're probably playing a wrong game.

[Blitz]

Meanwhile, the research bonus, the mages, the skeptics, the healers, etc., are also great things that can really help out when used well.

If there are several players who haven't figured out how to use something effectively, by all means try mods to make them better. But with players who know how to use the old Versions, they may end up being overpowered, and after the players who didn't know, get some experience, they may start to learn the subtler tricks too.

I'll try not to bristle at being painted as a novice Arcoscophile player =). Arcoscophile is my race of choice, and I've played both it and golden era extensively. While players such as Zen have rightly pointed out that the mystic is a very good support mage, that fact does not override the fact that the golden era units are far inferior to the standard arcoscophile army.

No one is saying that Golden Era is unplayable. What most people will agree with is that the units are, when taken as a whole, inferior to the vannila troops, and therefore there is little incentive to use the theme, save for personal interest. If indeed the idea is for players to use less swords and more sorcery, then why take away the astrologer? With the astrologer goes the little blood and death magic that arcoscophile had. That may seem insignificant at first, but having no access to death magic at all really sucks. The earth summons are strictly second-tier to blood and death, and mystics aren't exactly the most efficient mages to use for elemental summons anyway. Don't forget that you are going to need a serious combat pretender to make up for your early military weaknesses.

The wind riders are devestating in numbers, but the fact is that they are extremely expensive. Yes, a force of 20 will destroy any back row, but that's 2500 gold! Surely there are better ways to spend 2500 gold than on 20 fragile fliers.

What I believe the awe ability does is enable players to use wind riders in smaller numbers. Massed wind riders is a losing strategy, even with a strong bless effect and awe. The awe ability reduces the attrition rate of wind riders against both independands and meleeing archers. Having tested the mod for about a day, I've decided I really like the results thus far. I wasn't as pleased with the "improved" wind lord. Most of the points Zen made were correct. He's basicly a flying Vanadrott, which made him far more effective than 3-4 regular riders. I'll probably restore his cost and remove the air magic in the final Version of the mod.

[ June 19, 2004, 23:17: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[PvK]

I don't question your Arco experience. How about your Ulm and massed flier experience? Having played a lot of Ulm and a fair amount (but very successful) with fliers, I see two bits of potential:

1) The Myrmidons compare well to Ulm heavy infantry. Shielded, very high prot. They are more expensive than Ulm HI, but they are also elite and have an excellent morale (Ulm morale is bad). In sufficient numbers, they should give a very solid center (which IME harmonizes with flying into the enemy rear). Comparing to Ulm, you've got different but similarly good HI, without the low morale and weak magic of Ulm. Does Ulm look impossibly weak to you?

2) The Icarids do look weak, but the blessed Wind Riders, Wind Lord, and Ircarid Champion (with items), ESPECIALLY combined with a Shedu (!), could I think be made into a nearly unstoppable stomp rear force. They just need enough critical mass to overwhelm. Meanwhile, you have a sold force of heavy infantry to hit them from the other side. I don't think that needs much improvement, but rather, mass and ... timing. Probably try to time the fliers to hit the rear shortly after the Myrmidons engage the main battle line. In my experience, you can provide mass to your strong fliers with weaker fliers - which I would expect to be nicely filled by the ordinary Icarids - they are the "cannon fodder" of the flying elite. Expect to lose a few, but they should be a force multiplier by keeping your elite fliers from getting overwhelmed even if they are flying into a large enemy force.

If the fliers become so strong that they can "survive" even when facing overwhelming numbers, then they may be entirely unstoppable when used in a strong combined force. Especially if you throw a Shedu into the mix as well.

PvK

[Blitz]

I don't question your Arco experience. How about your Ulm and massed flier experience?

The nerfect VQ has somewhat diminished my liking for BF ulm, and the other two themes don't appeal to me... So I wouldn't consider myself an Ulm expert by any stretch of the imagination. But I love fliers. I use Vanheim almost exclusively in MP these days, due to their amazing combination of Einheres, Valkries, Vans, combat magic, the best pretender god available, and the second best recruitable SC's (I'd rank the recuperating, regenerating, elemental fortituded, cloud trapeezing, mistformed Tuatha #1).

1) The Myrmidons compare well to Ulm heavy infantry. Shielded, very high prot. They are more expensive than Ulm HI, but they are also elite and have an excellent morale (Ulm morale is bad). In sufficient numbers, they should give a very solid center (which IME harmonizes with flying into the enemy rear). Comparing to Ulm, you've got different but similarly good HI, without the low morale and weak magic of Ulm. Does Ulm look impossibly weak to you

Unfortunately you are missing one very important point. The Myrmidons are equipped with a short sword. Damage 5, length 1, attack 0, defense 0. It's a good thing they have better than average morale, because even broadsword infantry get a riptose chance. This, combined with a massive 8 encumbrance makes their very good basic stats decieving. Combine that with their higher cost in both resources (35 under sloth) and coin, and this is not a comprable unit to Ulm in real-world terms. And Ulm isn't exactly the state of the art in HI anyway. But the most limiting factor is of course their excessive resource cost. They require more resources than any human HI in the game, save the Zweihander.

2) The Icarids do look weak, but the blessed Wind Riders, Wind Lord, and Ircarid Champion (with items), ESPECIALLY combined with a Shedu (!), could I think be made into a nearly unstoppable stomp rear force. They just need enough critical mass to overwhelm. Meanwhile, you have a sold force of heavy infantry to hit them from the other side. I don't think that needs much improvement, but rather, mass and ... timing. Probably try to time the fliers to hit the rear shortly after the Myrmidons engage the main battle line. In my experience, you can provide mass to your strong fliers with weaker fliers - which I would expect to be nicely filled by the ordinary Icarids - they are the "cannon fodder" of the flying elite. Expect to lose a few, but they should be a force multiplier by keeping your elite fliers from getting overwhelmed even if they are flying into a large enemy force.

This is a good point. A mixed squad of icarids and wind riders is indeed better than one of riders alone, although the attrition rate is very poor. I continualy bring up the comparison with Vanheim, which I feel is appropriate as they both feature fliers. Even forgetting Vanheim's obvious advantages in cavalry and infantry, the valkrie is clearly superior to the GE fliers. It's cheaper, has glamour, and is also sacred.

A note about bless effects with GE. Taking a strong blessing is more difficult with GE, given their military weakness in the early game. A combat pretender is nearly essential, even moreso when you consider that GE's bless troops take much longer than most to come Online. Your 2-3 blessed fliers won't make a lick of difference when those 30 BF Ulm rangers show up with their POD and Ulmish infantry. Bless effects also restrict your ability to compensate for GE's weak nature and nonexistant blood/death magics. A pretender can only do so much, and taking a strong bless effect for a few indisputably overcosted fliers is a bad idea.

Especially if you throw a Shedu into the mix as well.

I can't imagine a scenario where a Shedu combined with blessed wind riders could be anywhere near cost efficient. The Shedu is a 125-point pretender with poor bless options, limited item slots, a severe fatigue problem, a vulnerability to astral mages that must be overcome, and no inherant resistances or useful combat abilities. For a nation like Arcoscephale, with a wide range of combat pretenders... both flying and non flying... he's quite possibly the most useless unit in the game.

[ June 20, 2004, 19:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[PvK]

Shortsword is 5 0 1 1 (not 5 0 0 1), Broadsword is 6 0 1 2, and Ulm hammer is 7 0 -1 1. Myrmidons are ST 11 for +1 damage compared to most troops. Compared to broadsword, it's just -1 length. Compared to Ulm hammer, it's -1 damage but +2 defense. As you say, their morale means they are not likely to fail to engage targets with longer weapons. Makes them as good, or with their elite skills and morale, better, on a one for one basis. In a group, this means an advatange, because combat in a battle line is 1:1. The resource cost limits their numbers (they aren't actually the highest cost though - Ulm has a 37), but they are better per man than Ulm HI anyway. The encumbrance does mean they will wear out after prolonged fighting, but Ulm has the same problem (worse for the plate/shield troops) and does extremely well as long as they have enough men. Here it provides a limitation that makes sense. They will do very well at first and then wear down after a while, but by that time in what must be a large battle, perhaps other forces have joined in (such as a flying force).

I would say bless GE, like practically all bless strategies, is an option. The Wind Riders and Wind Lord can be very effective even without a blessing.

GE's Mystic is _2S_3?_ ! Seems to me you are spoiled by Arco's great magic, if you call this "nonexistant blood/death". Still seems to me like you are likely looking at GE as an alternative to standard Arco, without appreciating the comparison to Ulm and nations with flying strike forces (who generally do not have strong HI at all). Coming from a perspective of someone who has played a bunch of Ulm and Mictlan and some Vanheim and Arco), I see good HI (maybe not quite as good as Ulm), very good magic (maybe not quite as good as standard Arco), and good fliers (maybe not quite as good as Vanheim or Devils or Caelum(?)), but all combined in one, plus other interesting goodies. That is, comparing to other nations and styles I have played a lot, I see at least five great strengths (Magic, Research, Fliers, HI, Healing) which may not be quite as good as in specialist nations (Normal Arco magic, Caelum/demon Fliers, Ulm HI), but are combined all in one nation, and most can be synergistic with each other, as well as providing variety (I know what to expect from the others - not so much from GE Arco). Looks excellent to me, though not as well suited to following just one style of play that may be better in one of the others.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Blitz:
... I can't imagine a scenario where a Shedu combined with blessed wind riders could be anywhere near cost efficient. The Shedu is a 125-point pretender with poor bless options, limited item slots, a severe fatigue problem, a vulnerability to astral mages that must be overcome, and no inherant resistances or useful combat abilities. For a nation like Arcoscephale, with a wide range of combat pretenders... both flying and non flying... he's quite possibly the most useless unit in the game.

As I just wrote, blessing is optional. But Shedu's Earth and Astral are both reasonable blessings. Every point of Earth magic will give your Shedu +1 DR, so maybe consider a 9 Earth blessing, giving the Shedu 16 base protection, your blessed troops (and Priestesses) +4 protection and +4 reinvigoration. 8 + Earth protection and 230 base hit points counts as pretty formidable "resistances" to almost everything. The Astral need is definitely there, though. Trampling and 30-damage hoof are not bad. Yes he often gets killed if sent against a group all alone. Combined with a flying force that is formidable by itself, though, it's two deadly forces that go great together. He won'd get swarmed while there are enough fliers swarming around him with Guard Commander orders. Again, adding multiple fliers with different strengths and weaknesses together, can let them cover for each others' weaknesses. I say all this not to assert he's the "best" choice, but to point out that he's far from weak or "most useless" (tm, pet peeve).

PvK