Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game. Game on!

[Trumanator]

When you are using the mod, make sure you DO NOT enable cbm 1.6, as it is already incorporated in the mod. Otherwise you get weirdness like Archae did.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by DrPraetorious

*bump*

Are we playing? If so, post whatever modifications you've made to the Chaos Mod, I will mix it in and we can start this week ?

Ok, here we go. (Sorry for the delay, I was away from a computer for a while). Here is the final version of the chaos mod. I didn't go as radical on the Chaos commanders as Squirreloid suggested, but went in the general direction he presented.

Also, I got struck by an odd bug. The game crashes when I try to start a game, saying a message "too many sprites in a mod". Which is extremely odd, since I started many, many test game with the mod before. The problem is probably on my end.

[rdonj]

Hmm, I don't know that the lord of khorne was really so bad off. Last time I played chaos, a lord of khorne was easily able to solo almost any province. They do still have innate fear and weapons of sharpness, right?

[archaeolept]

yah. against crappy indies, maybe. I guess the berserk helps... but really, killing indies isn't much to speak of.

[Squirrelloid]

Hmm... i got an error - can't find clandwarf? In the chaos mod? Do i need to be using the other combined mod? Why would that involve clandwarves anyway?

Edit: I suppose relevantly - is the new chaos mod already incorporated into the starting mod? Is it meant to run companion to it?

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Hmm... i got an error - can't find clandwarf? In the chaos mod? Do i need to be using the other combined mod? Why would that involve clandwarves anyway?

Edit: I suppose relevantly - is the new chaos mod already incorporated into the starting mod? Is it meant to run companion to it?

My bad. Fixed version in this post (I didn't inlcude graphics, just .dm file, because that is where the error was)

[Squirrelloid]

I have this sense that even with the changes you've made, Lord of Tzeentch and Champion of Tz are among the only playable options for chaos lords.

I'll agree, the Lord of Nurgle *looks* like he has a lot going on. But have you tried to *use* him? Even the khornate lord outperforms against weak PD.

Stats (Lords)
Khorn: 300g 49r; Str 17 Att 17 Def 22; HP 30 Prot 21; Berzerk 6 Exh 3
Nurgle: 375g 50r; Str 15 Att 15 Def 18; HP 34 Prot 20; H1 Regen20% Fear+0 PR100 Undead PlagueCarrier Rejuvenation
Slaanesh: 375g 49r; Str 13 Att 12 Def 19; HP 24 Prot 20; H1 Awe+3

All have a magical weapon. Slaanesh has a magical ranged attack (enslave mind).

Stats (Champions)
Khorn: 175g 33r; Str 17 Att 17 Def 12; HP 35 Prot 21; Berzerk 5 Exh 3
Nurgle: 250g 33r; Str 15 Att 15 Def 17; HP 30 Prot 20; Regen10% Fear +0 PR100 Undead PlagueCarrier Rejuvenation
Slaanesh: 175g 33r; Str 13 Att 13 Def 16; HP 24 Prot 20; Awe+1

(all are sacred)

Some comparison stats:
EA Atlantis
BQ: 250g 1r; Str 20 Att 12 Def 5; HP 48 Prot 14; H3 Amph F+0 FR50 CR50 DkVis
BK: 500g 1r; Str 21 Att 13 Def 12; HP 51 Prot 16; F1W2E3 +110%? Amph F+0 FR50 CR50 DkVis

A straight up comparison of hte BK with the Lord of Slaanesh reveals that 125g extra for the BK is well worth the price. Stats are reasonably equivalent (BK takes a lower Def in exchange for much higher str, and trades a few pts of prot for almost double HP), but the BK also adds 7.1 magic paths, and trades Awe+3 for amph, Fear, partial resistance to fire and cold, and dark vision. The BK comes out more than 125g extra good compared to the Nurgle Lord as well.

The BQ compares quite favorably to the identically priced Nurgle Champion. H3 is an amazing advantage relative to the Nurgle champion's total lack of casting.

Yomi:
Oni General: 130g 33r; Str 17 Att 13 Def 11; HP 30 Prot 20; D+100%? FR50 PR50 NNE Demon MtnSurv Glutton

A rather comparable chassis to the champion level units, including similar HP, protection, and slightly lower stats - but it also comes with some magical ability. Setting the chaos champions to approximately this price seems emminently reasonable by comparison.

Dao Oni: 500g 39r; Str 20 Att 16 Def 12; HP 50 Prot 20; F2E2D3H1 +110%? F+3 FR50 PR50 NNE Demon MtnSurv Glutton

If 8.1 magic paths beyond H1 isn't much more than 125g good than the chaos lords, i don't know what is. The chassis is otherwise comparable, trading defense for improved str and 80% more HP. Also has fear *+3*, as if it wasn't already a strictly better buy per gp than Nurgle's Lord.

Fomoria:
Nemedian Champion: 140g 25r; Str 13 Att 15 Def 18; HP 15 Prot 10; A1D1H1 Stlth+25 DkVis50 Glamour

Another reasonably comparable chassis to the champions. Note the few shortcomings are probably more than made up for by the magical paths.

Fomorian King: 500g 37r; Str 25 Att 12 Def 13; HP 70 Prot 15; A3D2H2 +110%? PoorAmph CR50 Sailing

Sailing is pretty amazing - it and 6.1 magic paths + an extra holy level go a long way to put it more than 125g beyond the chaos lord choices.

Jotunheim:
Jotun Herse: 60g 41r; Str 21 Att 12 Def 13; HP 32 Prot 17;

This is a perfect comparison. Same HP, not much less protection, more strength at lower att/def, merely sacred with no holy level. And its *1/3* the cost. Based on this, none of the champions should be much over 100g (excepting Tz who has magic).

Basically, there's no way to justify gold costs as high as they are for what those units do. I mean, if you leave it the way it is i can guarantee i'll be playing almost pure Tz and sorcerors for commanders, because they'll be the only ones worth buying.

The best fix is almost certainly to hand out some magic while cutting prices until those units are reasonable.

(The exalted sorceror is probably overpriced at present as well, since for 320g you're expecting quite a bit more magical oomph - compare to Shinuyama's bakemono sorceror).

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I'll agree, the Lord of Nurgle *looks* like he has a lot going on. But have you tried to *use* him? Even the khornate lord outperforms against weak PD.

Using a unit's performance against PD 'naked', perhaps isn't the best measuring stick on performance. The nurgle guy has poison cloud, that alone gives him a niche against armies of few elite units.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

(The exalted sorceror is probably overpriced at present as well, since for 320g you're expecting quite a bit more magical oomph - compare to Shinuyama's bakemono sorceror).

I lowered his gold cost to 275 gold in the latest fix.

As for your insightful posts, I just really want to get the game started. If you feel like only the Tzeentecth guys are usable, just use them then. I don't have time and/or patience to give the lords and champions extensive magic pick and cost revamps and to test them. Chaos is pretty powerful enough as it stands, with its diverse magic, insane pretender chassis, good summons, strong troops and national late-game SC summons. You have some 'dead choices', which is a shame, but we really need to move along here. In hidsight, I should have taken a better look at chaos before starting this game, but what is done is done.

As for your unit comparisons, I find them quite insightful. You are forgetting one thing thought. Context. A lot power of the chassis/unit comes from the other choices you have in the nation. Example: BK would be a lot more powerful chassis in MA Ulm, since ulm has a *lot* better ability to forge gear for it.

Also remember that a nation that would have chassises which are somewhat equal to BK, Dai Oni and Fomorian King (respectively) would be serious candidate for overpowerdness. These units are absolute stars and selling points of their respective nations. You can't just compile an "all-stars" team of SC chassises and expect it to be balanced. There needs to be "diversity cost" added to each of them, where you pay for the options you have. Being diverse and having a lot of good options is also a national strenght, just like being able to bloosac, getting extra points due to temp scales and so forth.

Don't take this wrong, some of the Champions and Lords could probably use a boost, but you should also think of the context when estimating prices. IMHO, you probably should list your thoughts and comaprisons to the Chaos thread, I'm sure that he will find them insightful.

[Sombre]

Yeah I agree with burn. Rebalancing chaos is a different issue. Should either be a new project with the permission of panpiper, or submitted in feedback in panpiper's thread.

If they're overpowered or underpowered it will probably come out in this game and that's fine - there's a degree of experiment about any mod nations game.

[archaeolept]

with just the 6-pack mod enabled, I am still unable to see any "insane pretender chassis." Also, while those champions/lords do seem over-priced, rebalancing, as was said, needs to be done in total context. Simply comparing one to an EA BK does not do much.