[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I hope the 40+ cruise missile strike happened to hit Saddam, so we can end the war quickly.

Edit:
Looks like they didn't. Oh well.

They might have. It's hard to tell. The speech during his broadcast was kind of vauge. It might have been previously recorded. Or it could have been a body double.

Random throught #1:

Hey, maybe they really got Sadaam back in '91 and Iraq has been ruled for the Last 12 years by a series of surgically enhanced body doubles.

Radmon thought #2:

Despite my personal belief in the justness of this war, and whatever the eventual outcome, it's kind of nice to see India and Pakistan finally agree on something.

[solops]

The solopian position:

As I write the war has begun. I have little doubt that the United States will prevail in an overwhelming fashion. However, this misconceived war with Iraq needs to be brought to a quick and successful conclusion. The items publicly offered by the Bush Administration as casus belli are patently inadequate as justification for a full scale war, particularly in this case, since we have tolerated Hussein and his weapons for decades. However, those items do offer additional proof to the mountain of evidence that Saddam Hussein is an evil, murderous thug who has had biological and chemical weapons for over twenty years and who may have nuclear weapons now. It is not, perhaps unfortunately, the American way to launch an unprovoked war against anyone based on the fear of what they might do. The correct course of action was to have Hussein and his henchmen removed by covert means or to wait for them to act overtly against us. I am dismayed by the clumsy thought processes evidenced by the preference for an expensive, flashy and unjustified war as opposed to quieter and much cheaper methods of achieving national security goals. Most importantly, if there are good, unpublicized reason to fight Iraq, make them public. Our government has not deserved unquestioning trust for 30 years, so tell us the whole story for I want to support them.

Now that the mistake has been made, a greater danger has been created in the United Nations. China, France and others, each for their own reasons, may use our actions as fodder to create a new cold war, rallying the jealous or ignorant masses of the Third and even Second worlds against us. International commerce will be made more difficult for us and trade will become the great weapon of the next decade. Countries like France will leverage themselves into the commercial gaps they will create by fanning hatred of the USA. New economic giants will be created to compete with us, in part by supplying enemies such as China in exchange for support. China and India will be ideally situated to play both sides, given their huge domestic markets, and they will surely use the opportunity to create or become major economic competitors to the American industrial juggernaut. This will not happen quickly or completely. We have our own supporters as well, but our relative power will be diminished and a more dangerous world will be a result. We may even see the legal and political precedents we are setting used against us by our competitors, using the UN as a legal tool. Since war on Iraq is to be pursued, the most logical course for the USA to take in furtherance of its own long term protection and benefit is to withdraw from the United Nations and let it collapse before it can become self-sustaining without our support. With that forum removed, not only does Washington become more important in world affairs, but a forum for our foes is removed.

The war on Iraq and Hussein has created a morass. I don’t even want to think about the quagmire presented by post-Hussein regional politics and Iraqi reconstruction. War is an evil thing, a Last resort at best and this was not yet the time for it. End the war quickly to minimize the political and moral damage……And worry about Korea.

[Baron Munchausen]

Guess what, Solops...

The US has been trying to remove Saddam by 'covert' means for most of the Last decade. Once it became apparent that he was not going to fall to the rebellion that sprang up after Gulf War I there was funding publicly voted to support the opposition in Iraq, and in a regime that doesn't allow opposition parties that means plots against the regime. Not only did they catch every attempt, but US handlers got calls from the Iraqi intelligence agents on their own equipment to tell them their agents had been caught and arrested. Presumably they are all dead by now, or perhaps we should say 'hopefully' they are all dead by now. Being alive in a prison run by Saddam is not a pleasant thought.

I personally think this is why Bush has gone bonkers on this issue. The US is quite used to having its way. How many governments have we over-thrown in the past 5 decades or so? It's hard to count... So anyway, Saddam was better at the 'covert' game than the US and the boys in the back room can't stand it. They want his head at all costs.

[ March 20, 2003, 22:35: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[solops]

I was thinking more in terms of assassination via sniper or smart bomb. Perhaps even a bounty or bribe. Fomenting unrest in a police state like Iraq is futile.

As far as the rebellions after the first Gulf war, that was a no-go. The US's allies did not want Saddam out due to fear of the Iranians. Therefore Iraq proper was not entered and the Republican Guard was allowed to escape so that it could maintain Saddam in power. I guess they hoped he'd be chastened.

I would expect that in a year or three Saddam could be eliminated, if the US was both serious and secretive enough. Or perhaps not.

[TerranC]

Goddamn it, solops, It's North Korea, not Korea. Look at my location (the "From" below my post) to see why that matters.

Also, a question to all you war buffs: can you tell me how the Iraqis managed to get french mirages?

Edit: typing mistakes...

[ March 20, 2003, 23:53: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[Fyron]

What is a french mirage?

Tesco:

when does the moon wax or is it wain....

Wax is grow brighter, wain is grow dimmer (to avoid looking up the astronomical terms ).

[ March 20, 2003, 23:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
What is a french mirage?

French-Developed Fighter planes. CNN says that the Iraqi air force has about 10-20 of them.

[Thermodyne]

Iraq has F-1’s, not really front line fighters any more. The Mirrage became famious in the hands of the Israilies. But are very over rated. The F III and F 5 are the delta wing fighters that most people think of as Mirages. The F-1 is a swept wing fighter that looks like and old US Navy F-11 (don’t remember the original designation) The F-1 went onto service in the mid 70’s, and would have been a contemporary of the F-4 Phantom and a year ahead of the F-14 and F-15. So it was a generation behind as soon as it went into service. But then the French would sell to anyone, no questions asked.

F-1 Data

Within a year of the Mirage III entering service with the French air force, Dassault-Breguet was developing a successor. The Mirage F1 has 40 per cent more internal fuel than the Mirage III and a better wing design that improves maneuverability and enables it to take off from shorter runways.
Following on the Mirage F-2, which was a revival of the classic arrow-wing design with stabilizers, the Mirage F-1 is a defense and air superiority single-seater plane. This revival was made possible by technological advances which permit manufacture of ultra-thin but robust wings, enabling at supersonic speeds flight performance equivalent to that of delta wings. The integrity of the fuselage structure allows the aircraft to carry a maximum amount of fuel.
The wings are high-mounted, swept-back, and tapered. Missiles are usually mounted at the wing tips. There is one turbojet engine in the body. There are semicircular air intakes alongside the body forward of the wing roots. There is a single exhaust. The fuselage is long, slender, pointed nose and a blunt tail. There are two small belly fins under the tail section and a bubble canopy. The tail is swept-back and tapered fin with a blunt tip. The flats are mid-mounted on the fuselage, swept-back, and tapered with blunt tips.
The Mirage F-1 prototype made its maiden flight with René Bigand at the controls, 23rd December 1966, at Melun-Villaroche (the Seine-et-Marne region of France).
The French air force ordered the Mirage Fl for its interceptor squadrons, and the first F1s entered service in 1973. The Fl proved a very popular export, with over 500 of them sold abroad in the first 10 years of production. More than 700 Mirage F-1's have been sold to some 11 countries. The Dassault Mirage F-1C was the standard French fighter before Mirage 2000 entered service in the air force in 1984. The Mirage Fl has seen combat in the Persian Gulf, where Iraqi Mirage F1s played an important role in the attacks on tankers during the late 1980s. There are several Versions now operational - all-weather interceptors, fighter-bombers and dedicated reconnaissance aircraft.

Specifications
Country of Origin France
Builder team : Dassault Aviation, SNECMA, Thomson-CSF
Role Mirage F1 CT - Close Air Support (CAS) / attack / fighter
Mirage F1 CR - Tactical reconnaissance / fighter
First flight : November 1981
1992 for the new weapons system (F1 CT Version)
In-service in French Air Force : 1983
Similar Aircraft Super Etendard
Mitsubishi F-1
AV-8B Harrier II
Fantan A
Crew one
trainer--two
Length 49 ft (14.94 m) 15.33 m
Span 27 ft, 7 in (8.4 m)
Height : 4.50 m
Weight 8.1 t empty
15.2 t maximum at takeoff
Power plant / Thrust : SNECMA Atar 9K50 jet engine / 4.7 t and 6.8 t with afterburner
Ceiling 52,000 ft [20,000 meters ?]
Maximum speed : Mach 2.2
Cruise range 1160 nm
In-Flight Refueling Y
Internal Fuel 3435 kg
Fuel capacity : 4,100 l internal / 6,400 l maximal / In-flight refuelling
Payload 6300 kg
Sensors Cyrano IVM radar (-200 has IWMR), RWR
Drop Tanks 1160 L drop tank with 927kg of fuel for 157nm of range
2300 l drop tank with 1837kg of fuel for 310nm of range
Armament 2 30mm DEFA 553 cannon
2 Matra Magic R550
free fall and parachute drag bombs
Special equipment : Radar Thomson-CSF Cyrano IV-MR (air-to-air, air-to-ground), inertial navigation system, panoramic camera Omera 40, vertical camera Omera 33, IR thermographic captor Super Cyclope, lateral radar Raphael, electromagnetic emissions detector Astac, photographic pod RP35P, Desire digital video recce pod, electronic counter measures
NATO interoperability : In-flight refuelling by NATO aircraft, armament and ammunitions in accordance with NATO standards
User Country France
Greece
Iran
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Morocco
Qatar
South Africa
Spain
Number of units produced : 740 (all types of Mirage F1 included)
French Air Force inventory : 40 aircraft in 2 squadrons

[primitive]

Originally posted by TerranC:

Also, a question to you all war buffs: can you tell me how the Iraqis managed to get french mirages?

Between 1982 and 1987 Iraq bought 100+ Mirage F1s from France (This was done with US blessing so don't use this for France-bashing). Most was destroyed in Gulf War 1. Some sources also claim that Iraq stole 8 Mirage F1s from Kuwait during the same war.

Anyway, these fighters is now antiquated and will probably be of little use.

[Thermodyne]

Well, I don’t want to be rude here, but your statement is untrue. France actively sought out sales in Iraq. They were even trying to set up joint ventures to build the 2000 mark. France would sell their soul if someone was willing to pay for it. Remember they are the bastards that sold this tyrant a breeder reactor.

Quote from Global Security :

The equipment of the air force and the army's air corps, like that of the other services, was primarily of Soviet manufacture. After 1980, however, in an effort to diversify its sources of advanced armaments, Iraq turned to France for Mirage fighters and for attack helicopters. Between 1982 and 1987, Iraq received or ordered a variety of equipment from France, including more than 100 Mirage F-1s, about 100 Gazelle, Super-Frelon, and Alouette helicopters, and a variety of air-to-surface and air-to-air missiles, including Exocets. Other attack helicopters purchased included the Soviet Hind equipped with AT-2 Swatter, and BO-105s equipped with AS-11 antitank guided weapons. In addition, Iraq bought seventy F-7 (Chinese Version of the MiG-21) fighters, assembled in Egypt. Thus Iraq's overall airpower was considerable.
Between 1977 and 1987, Paris contracted to sell a total of 133 Mirage F-1 fighters to Iraq. The first transfer occurred in 1978, when France supplied eighteen Mirage F-1 interceptors and thirty helicopters, and even agreed to an Iraqi share in the production of the Mirage 2000 in a US$2 billion arms deal. In 1983 another twenty-nine Mirage F-1s were exported to Baghdad. And in an unprecedented move, France "loaned" Iraq five SuperEtendard attack aircraft, equipped with Exocet AM39 air-to- surface missiles, from its own naval inventory. The SuperEtendards were used extensively in the 1984 tanker war before being replaced by several F-1s. The final batch of twenty-nine F1s was ordered in September 1985 at a cost of more than US$500 million, a part of which was paid in crude oil. Iraq also bought more than 400 Exocet AM39 air-to-surface missiles and at least 200 AS30 laser-guided missiles between 1983 and 1986.