[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by solops:
I was thinking more in terms of assassination via sniper or smart bomb. Perhaps even a bounty or bribe. Fomenting unrest in a police state like Iraq is futile.

As far as the rebellions after the first Gulf war, that was a no-go. The US's allies did not want Saddam out due to fear of the Iranians. Therefore Iraq proper was not entered and the Republican Guard was allowed to escape so that it could maintain Saddam in power. I guess they hoped he'd be chastened.

I would expect that in a year or three Saddam could be eliminated, if the US was both serious and secretive enough. Or perhaps not.

They weren't paying for a quiet arrest, you know. The idea was exactly what you suggest, to foment a military coup. Guns, grenades, shrapnel. Nasty stuff. And every officer they recruited was caught. Some Colonel in the Iraqi intelligence services would pick up the fancy encrypted satellite phone they had given their chosen 'covert operative' to keep in touch with and tell them he had been arrested. *click* End of coup attempt. The Iraqi intelligence services are good. After many attempts they have decided to get rid of Saddam the hard way.

[ March 21, 2003, 00:19: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[primitive]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, I don’t want to be rude here, but your statement is untrue. France actively sought out sales in Iraq. They were even trying to set up joint ventures to build the 2000 mark. France would sell their soul if someone was willing to pay for it. Remember they are the bastards that sold this tyrant a breeder reactor.

Thermo:
I'm gonna use your favorite trick here: Link please.

I do not deny that France actively sought sales in Iraq, but AFAIK the US did not try to prevent the sales (something they easily could have done, since the Mirage aircrafts include a lot of restricted technology France would need permission to sell).
If you can prove me wrong, I will bow to the master.

[tesco samoa]

when does the moon wax or is it wain.... Thats when the ground forces attack. Still to bright at night. So Friday , or Sunday.

[Thermodyne]

It is not US policy to block sales made by other nations. I have posted a list of the Nations that France sold F-1s to. And most of them were not allowed to purchase US weapons at the time. The US is not overly picky about who we sell to, but we do not supply advanced weapons to despots. My link is in the quote contained in my Last post. The full text can be found at Globalsecurity’s web site. Mr Pike is well known for posting facts that the US would have rather kept out of the public eye. Now I would like to see your link showing US involvement in the French arms sales.

[primitive]

Now your pulling a Fyron on me.

The burden of evidence is Yours, since you called my post untrue. Your link have no evidence either for or against US support. It's just a list of sales that nobody denies.

Anyway, all this is ancient history and the planes will be of no practical use in this war.

[Thermodyne]

The US linkage to the Iraq Iran war has already been posted and discussed in this very thread. Advice, Intelligence, and Loan Guarantees are the descriptions of the involvement. I’m sure that personal advice was also given, but the document only alludes to the value of this. At no point does the document say that the US provided advanced weaponry to Saddam. Fact is that the other side was using American weapons, although they were previously on hand.

Now you have stated that Saddam bought the F 1’s with the blessings of the US government. Post some supporting evidence or admit that it was a personal opinion. No one will fault you for stating your opinion, it is a right that we all have here. But we will fault you for stating opinion as fact.

To ask that I provide proof that something didn’t happen is ridiculous. What evidence would there be of a non event.

[Askan Nightbringer]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
It is not US policy to block sales made by other nations. I have posted a list of the Nations that France sold F-1s to. And most of them were not allowed to purchase US weapons at the time. The US is not overly picky about who we sell to, but we do not supply advanced weapons to despots. My link is in the quote contained in my Last post. The full text can be found at Globalsecurity’s web site. Mr Pike is well known for posting facts that the US would have rather kept out of the public eye. Now I would like to see your link showing US involvement in the French arms sales.

Well this finger pointing at France is just stupid. Behind every despot in the world is a permanent member of the Security Council arming them.

That Global Security website doesn't mention who supplied Iraq with the cultures it used to start its biological weapons program. There was a US senate report in 1994 detailing all the shipments, that continued after Saddam was gassing Kurds in the 80s. Now what the hell was that? What sort of crazy nutter gives Saddam the tools to make biological weapons? How completely f*ck*d up is that?

You want links?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...elp-list_x.htm

www.timesOnline.co.uk/article/0,,3-528574,00.html

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021001-8211716.htm

Askan

[Thermodyne]

The Biologic agents were provided in good faith under a program that was intended to help free the world from these organisms. It was a program developed at the UN in conjunction with the CDC. Was it done in poor judgment, I think so. But you link this to the use of Chemical weapons, and those would fall at the feet of the Soviets, and were manufactured in French supplied plants. Also the US never supplied the equipment to make large quantities of these agents. Again, this would be the French and Germans. Sure, they may have thought that the equipment was for other uses. But now that it is time to put a stop to this foolishness, where are the three main suppliers.

In closing, at least America has the fortitude to put and end to this madness. We will end the reign of this particular despot. Which is a hell of a lot more than France wanted to do.

[Thermodyne]

A little research goes a long way. This is where the samples came from. This is not part of the US government. And what it did was legal at the time it was done. Stupid yes, but not against the law at that time.

http://www.atcc.org/About/AboutATCC.cfm

[Askan Nightbringer]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
The Biologic agents were provided in good faith under a program that was intended to help free the world from these organisms. It was a program developed at the UN in conjunction with the CDC. Was it done in poor judgment, I think so. But you link this to the use of Chemical weapons, and those would fall at the feet of the Soviets, and were manufactured in French supplied plants. Also the US never supplied the equipment to make large quantities of these agents. Again, this would be the French and Germans. Sure, they may have thought that the equipment was for other uses. But now that it is time to put a stop to this foolishness, where are the three main suppliers.

In closing, at least America has the fortitude to put and end to this madness. We will end the reign of this particular despot. Which is a hell of a lot more than France wanted to do.

Poor judgement is a bit of an understatement. I would prefer to use criminally stupid.

I don't link them to chemical weapons, I just pointed out the shipments continued after the gassing of Kurds, by a horrible murderous tyrant.

See my point really is this-

You sit there and spout stuff about how bad the French are in arming this complete anus of a man ("Remember they are the bastards that sold this tyrant a breeder reactor."), while claiming the US has has been almost perfect in its handling of Iraq over the Last 30 years ("but we do not supply advanced weapons to despots") and here's hard evidence the US started Saddam's biological weapons program, which you dismiss with a "poor judgement" and a "the US never supplied the equipment to make large quantities of these agents".
Its weak, very weak.

Oh...the cultures was sent by both the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (government)
and the American Type Culture Collection (approved by the government). The usatoday article lists who sent what.

Askan
Not supporting the arming of despots by anyone.