Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by oleg:
If you can delay the start of your game a little, I'll post modified files.

Sure, I have not even started to tweak the files for it yet. I expect the main part of the adjustments will not take place before Friday and I think I need at least the whole weekend to fiddle out the settings... Take your appreciated time.

I will see what I can for the empire files, but in some cases there have been +/-2000 pts and even the recommended racial traits are not easy to put together. I just do not want to screw up the AI with it.

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

quote:

---

Originally posted by oleg:
If you can delay the start of your game a little, I'll post modified files.

Sure, I have not even started to tweak the files for it yet. I expect the main part of the adjustments will not take place before Friday and I think I need at least the whole weekend to fiddle out the settings... Take your appreciated time.

I will see what I can for the empire files, but in some cases there have been +/-2000 pts and even the recommended racial traits are not easy to put together. I just do not want to screw up the AI with it.

---

As long as you keep the same traits as for 2000 start and simply beef up statistics, there should be no problems at all. Some "neutral" traits like "propulsion expert" or "hardy industrialist" would work fine as well.

[JLS]

Originally posted by PvK:
I am starting to think maybe I should try to see if there are volunteers to help implement Proportions 3 and/or Foundations. It's a ton of work just figuring out what to do, and a cubic ton of work to actually do it, but maybe if we divide it up amongst some volunteers, it could work out. Of course, that still leaves a ton for me to do first... ;-)

PvK[/QB]

You haven’t started Proportions 3.00 yet
You know I'm in and you know what I like to work on
So start delegating; PvK

NOW!

[ March 05, 2003, 18:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Thinking about the spaceyard component tweaks. I understand the restriction of organic output to let's assume 50% or maybe 25% to circumvent the 1turn colonizer builds. It should be harder to clone or replicate organic material in space anyway, but not too much because of the organic races (org. armor and such) should not be screwed up with it. Another possibility could be to increase the organic needs of a colony pod AND additionally decrease of SY organic output by 50%. I mean, a colony pod could use some more than 2000 org vs. 3500 min.

PvK, was it intended to use SY components on transporters (cargo capability in question), or is it a kind of compromise?

oleg, I am going to look into your ship designs and some AI usage out of the simulation test also, but I appreciate if you provide any comments regarding SY component usage of the AI.
After >60 years all of the WP opening races are lacking minerals, organic cargo is full (as expected). All right, SM ships are expensive. A soulHunter Planet creator has been built with a religious talisman (no weapons), 17K min maintenance costs.

[ March 05, 2003, 20:15: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
oleg, I am going to look into your ship designs and some AI usage out of the simulation test also, but I appreciate if you provide any comments regarding SY component usage of the AI.
After >60 years all of the WP opening races are lacking minerals, organic cargo is full (as expected). All right, SM ships are expensive. A soulHunter Planet creator has been built with a religious talisman (no weapons), 17K min maintenance costs.[/QB]

Ooops Will take a look. I posted new Version of my AIs. The should work MUCH better in Non-connected games !

[Fyron]

Nobody was this willing to help out with Adamant Mod when I asked for help. Oh well.

[oleg]

Well, there is only that much time we can spend playing, I wish I could test all mods

[oleg]

I looked again on the proposed game specifications (poor homeworld, no AI bonus) and I have some doubts that any AI will not go bankrupt.

IT is very difficult to make AI for Proportions.
In a normal game all planets are more or less equal. If you have 10 planets, you are about 10 times better off than a guy with just 1 planet. Accordingly, AI files use "planet per item" as a rule. There is a resonably well operating AI feedback loop - more planets you have, more resources you produce, more ships you can afford. Thus, a good written "normal" AI can operate in a wide variety of settings - 3 planet start - no problems, expand 3 times faster, have 3 times more ship. High AI bonus - fine ! more planets, more ships.

The Proportions' situation is completely different. Guy with 10 colonies + homeworld does not have 10 times more resources than the guy with one homeworld. With luck, it would be just 50% more ! Hence - "planet per item" is inoperable for Proportions' AI. All Proportions' AI construction_vehicles.txt work mainly by "must have" option. As a result, there is almost no feedback and Proportions' AI are very inflexible Change AI bonus to high - it still build almost the same number of ships. AI programmer must have some specific game set in mind up when tweaking AI. For example I target one homeworld, low bonus/non bonus set-up. AI should not overspend resources but must provide a challange with low-bonus. Obviously, medium/high bonuses are nice but in fact AI will underperform, it could be made much more frightening

Now, I do not know how it will work with poor/no-bonus start. You may have to reduce all "must have" numbers by third. Just keep in mind this dumbed down AI will be a pushover in normal games ! Alternatively, You may still use low AI bonus. I do not think AI will kill you giving its poor homeworld

[ March 07, 2003, 13:39: Message edited by: oleg ]

[JLS]

I looked again on the proposed game specifications (poor homeworld, no AI bonus) and I have some doubts that any AI will not go bankrupt

As would a Human player have a tough time of it; in Poor Home World Set up
~

It is very difficult to make AI for Proportions.

Agreed, as all Mods. SMAC, CTP, AOE etc.
~

In a normal game all planets are more or less equal. If you have 10 planets, you are about 10 times better off than a guy with just 1 planet. Accordingly, AI files use "planet per item" as a rule. There is a resonably well operating AI feedback loop - more planets you have, more resources you produce, more ships you can afford.

Allot depends what that AI’s priority is at that time; a planet is considered for colonization. Then the Planet_Types file and the Facility_Construction files of that AI race, as it relates to the AI’s personality of the designers intent.
Also there are times the AI has a predetermined colony type locked before the colony ship is even Built and before what planet is to be considered.
More planets: do relate to more ships in most cases, however I can guarantee you this, it does not always equate to more Resources as strongly as you may think. For the reasons above and the fact that one AI may have 4 moons, domed, breathable, etc; No designer can know exactly what the next game will offer to the AI.
But if you know your MAP related files well, for the MOD you are preparing the AI for, you can do the above average job for the average game start, and hope you have done, no more then average for that average game start in respects to the AI.
Then you have succeeded
I hope that made, some sense!
~

The Proportions' situation is completely different. Guy with 10 colonies + homeworld does not have 10 times more resources than the guy with one homeworld. With luck, it would be just 50% more !

Agreed, one way to look at this for example:
If in a brand new Human Multiplayer game start, I would not despair or dropout while playing Proportions; even if my Home System had no land able planets, no breathable planets even if the neighboring systems are sparse.
Because my Home World would be just as good as the other Human Player, and with that, I can and (have) grown strong enough to contend with the leaders even with the very poorest of starts.
~

Hence - "planet per item" is inoperable for Proportions' AI. All Proportions' AI construction_vehicles.txt work mainly by "must have" option. As a result, there is almost no feedback and Proportions' AI are very inflexible Change AI bonus to high - it still build almost the same number of ships.
AI programmer must have some specific game set in mind up when tweaking AI. For example I target one home world, low bonus/non bonus set-up. AI should not overspend resources but must provide a challange with low-bonus. Obviously, medium/high bonuses are nice but in fact AI will underperform, it could be made much more frightening

I think what you may want to consider is the bigger picture, when you Work the AI’s Files, you are also working on the MOD, so a post-release change with the AI’s files will/could change the Mods chemistry dramatically ….

Crystals
For example: If you add
Entry 5 Type := Colony (Gas)
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Colony (Rock)
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 180
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 7 Type := Colony (Ice)
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 160
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 4
~
Crystals
To what was:
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 50
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2

The above now possible changes to your sets that you have made available for download looks harmless but will have a bigger impact then you think on Proportions 2.53 over all…

As a recommendation only. That you make patient little changes to a Post-Release AI and then test the effect on its Parent Released Mod thoroughly.
~

Now, I do not know how it will work with poor/no-bonus start. You may have to reduce all "must have" numbers by third. Just keep in mind this dumbed down AI will be a pushover in normal games ! Alternatively, You may still use low AI bonus. I do not think AI will kill you giving its poor homeworld

You can do the above average job for the average game start, and hope you have done, no more then average for that average game start, in respects to the AI. Then you have succeeded.
This way all changes from (default) may be Automatically addressed by the AI better

[ March 07, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

The AI appears to have severe problems with "no WP connected" anyways. I will repeat another test with high bonus and 10 planets start but I guess it will not be much better:

-new Krill AI 5000pts, mining aptitude impressive
-no WP connected
-medium settings (I have dropped the idea of poor start), no bonus, 1 planet start

game date: 2827 (427 years later)
-TWO WPs have been opened, a WP opener ship is surfing through the systems just sucking up minerals (25K/turn), mineral resources zero, org+rad is filled completely.
-7 ships and a few sats, a medium breathable planet 2 sectors away from home is filled with megalopolies, the other planets are fairly developed with monoliths, megaplexes
-Researching for SM 8 (sphere world placement generator, mmh, maybe I should let it run for another while...)

With all of the other tests before, I have never seen AI opening more than 2 WPs yet.

Some thoughts about the rest of the game setup, although it will be boring if the AI will be that inactive:

-Guzzling supplies. I have created two additional racial tech entries without costs: supply usage +50% and supply usage +100% to get some experience with it. A first level colonizer with supply cargo I (6000) would have supplies for 25 sectors if supply guzzling (30%) and +100% is set. Funny, the restricted traits that are set for guzzlers do not work, I mean you can set what you want, e.g. power conservation and guzzling to get a reduction by 25% + an increase by 30% (makes not much sense, I know).

-I have found some objections against the mass increment, or "engines per move". If I would increase them too much, the long range weapons become too overpowered. And if the colonizer would e.g. just move 1 sector per move with 8 engines it would be no difference if it has supplies or not (because of the min. 1 emergency drive).

-Human players should do some self-restrictions, like: it is not allowed to build troops or colonizers in space. I still favor the idea to decrease organic output of SY components drastically and additional to that I would prefer higher organic costs of colony pods. It has to take some 10 years to build a colony with a SYS, so that colony ships would have to be launched from planets only and always. OTOH this would be bad for organic races, any ideas to circumvent that?