MP: Asia Twist - Wraithlord Wins!

[archaeolept]

christ, such manifest dissimulation to top it all off wraithlord.

for the record, what Wraithlord claims as Aristander's "heroic defense" of his VP, or "knowing that R'lyehs army is tied up protecting his last VP" - as was known to all in the area, I had one shambler sieging that VP. Rlyeh had a huge teleporting army who could easily have defended his cap or his other VP. But, according to WL, it was somehow necessary for him to use his whole army to ward off my solitary shambler.

This end-game was rigged, and a set-up, and I have never seen the like in all my years of playing Dominions. Now, some may feel that intentionally throwing a game in this situation is fine. Others may not.

The turn files are available from Pasha for anyone who would like to see what actually went down.

When I was first concerned that this is what was happening, I expressed my unease to Pasha. He assured me that Wraithlord was a gentleman. I can't give his motivations for saying that in response to my worries; perhaps they were completely unrelated.

[WraithLord]

Ok. I'll try to put on an AAR. Hopefully I won't get to tied up and be able to complete it. I'll do this in small steps. So w/o further ado:
The chronicles of Burn the ultimate god of AsiaTwist map (well ultimate just below Pasha's heavy feat that is )

Turns 1-10:
1. Burn, Imprisoned Earth Mother E9N9 Dom-8 great scales.
Why I chose her?- I personally prefer either SC or rainbow mages but wanted to try this new (to me ) fashion
that everyone seemed so excited about - heavy bless.
Prophetize Gere the Jotun herse. He'll stay alive through most of the game and will have a place in HoF.
recruit woodsman and my fav Jotum mage: the Vaetti hag.

2. Take starting army and woodsman and move towards first indie province.
recruitment is same as first turn.

3. 0 losses. Take another indie province.

4. same. Ashdod leads the expansion race.

5. Gere enters HoF with light. reflexes.

6. 2nd army (woodsman led by a jarl) joins expansion.

7. Upgrade to two new indie provinces per turn. 3rd army out the gates.
Ashdod and Van lead the expansion race.

8. Meet both TC and Ctis. A fatefull meeting. With TC I'll keep the peace until the end game and have great relations.
Ctis with it's offensive Miasma domain I conceive as a problem and start working on a plan to eliminate it.

9. Expand - 3 indie provinces per turn.
Ashdod leads the race.

10. Meet Pythium, Bandar and Pan. With the former two I sign NAPs.
With Pan I also sign NAP but somehow it doesn't feel that secure.
I have a bad feeling re. Pan and later Caelum disposition towards me all game long.
At one point later on my fears came true as both attacked me

[archaeolept]

Anyways, I would like to express that overall this has been a great game. I had many epic struggles against pythium, bandar, eriu, TC and rlyeh. The map is beautiful, and a nice twist on traditional Dominions maps. The only quibble I might have with it is the large number of scrub island provinces; I would probably consolidate a few of them myself.

I'll just lay the facts out here as to what happened in these final turns, so that the precise situation can be known by everyone. The turns are available from Pasha for anyone who doubts my account.

I was sieging one of rlyeh's VP's, with a middling little raiding army (as the castle had been undefended). I knew I had little chance, as rlyeh could easily get forces there, so I did not assault with my tart that was also sieging. Rlyeh (who was being subbed by rdonj) responded w/ a breathtaking 25 or so full starspawn, a large bunch of illithids, an astral hero, and a ton of chaff. It was an imposing force, and the major event in rdonj's last sub turn. According to him " this last turn is actually mostly wraithlord." Which was fair enough - a sub looking to a common enemy for advice. The point being that this potent force was explicitly known to WL, as likely he had a good hand in designing it.

That same turn my probing assault was repulsed, WL teleported in a few sieging SCs to another of Rlyeh's VPs. Had he been taking advantage of a substitute player, or was he already assured by Aristander that there would be no defense? This was a good anti-SC force; tarts equipped w/ gatecleavers. I didn't counter them, as I could get no response from Aristander, and I had just lost a fair force fighting WL to protect Caelum's cap, and expected that rlyeh could handle them. WL took this w/ no opposition at all - yet who assaults what one should expect to be a horrendous amount of astral power fronted at the gates w/ a ton of non-routing chaff, w/ tarts equipped w/ gatecleavers, unless, of course, you are assured you will not be defended against?

Now, I had huge turns to do, which were difficult as I had a sinking feeling in my stomach that the game was now being thrown; correctly as it turned out. It was in this context that Pasha reassured me that wraithlord was "a gentleman". The context surely implied that a "gentleman" wouldn't be involved in such activities, but I'll let Pasha speak for himself, if he wishes. Nevertheless, I got in my turns.

Repeat then for Rlyeh's cap. Rlyeh kept his full force away from WL, and did nothing to defend when he could have easily, as WL was assaulting w/ one earth mother w/ a gatecleaver, and one tartarian. It is clear there was collusion to throw the game between Wraithlord and Aristander. That Rlyeh needed his full army to defend against one shambler is an amazing claim.

Now, throwing a game is a borderline activity, and it is up to the community to decide whether it feels such playstyle is warranted, or to be encouraged. Personally, I haven't seen anything so low since fighting Norfleet's hacked armies. That's where I learned to play; I refused to give in to that, and likewise I will not stand silent in this case.

Now, dear readers, if there are any , you may go back and peruse Wraithlord's recent posts and see how his spin jibes with the situation as presented.

Wraithlord would like to make the claim that he would have won anyways, but this is not the case. I had lost some major forces defending caelum, but so had he. It is clear that one does not stoop to having a game thrown to you if you feel assured you could win by normal means.

[WraithLord]

Turns 11-15:
11. Reached evoc. 2 for Arcane probing.
Steady expansion rate of 3 provinces per turn gets me near to top of the provinces/income charts.

12. cont. expansion

13. Now expanding at rate of 4 provinces per turn
For the first time leading province/income charts.

14. Expanding some more.

15. Trade with Oceania gives me lot's of nature gems that I really need.
Ashdod and me have very high profile. Both are candidates for a sound dog piling

[archaeolept]

12. cont. expansion

I guess this is Wraithlord's version of "nah nah nah I can't hear you"

[rdonj]

I need to learn how to control my mouth when subbing, as it is clear my comments have added directly to this fiasco, heh. I can't say as to whether the game was "thrown" or not, that is for aristander and wraithlord to say.

However, on the subject of whether it is acceptable to "throw" a game, I would like to comment. Personally, I have done this, in my second game. It was a noob game and early on, I allied myself with one of my neighbors. I decided I didn't care about winning, so long as the person who guaranteed my not winning was unable to claim victory. So, later in the game, when that player went AI and it was just me, my ally and another player standing, we called the game in favor of my ally, and I had no problem with giving him the win. I could have given my ally a pretty good fight, and maybe, just maybe beaten him. But I never had any intention of fighting him. Of course, it was never my intention to win that game. Just not to lose. But I felt no shame in allowing the win to go to my ally rather than my enemy.

If there is a nation which I really don't want to see winning the game, vs a nation who I'm allied with, and I have no chance to win the game myself... I will probably choose to back the one I dislike the least. Even if I'm not the one who wins, it gives me the satisfaction of my "side" winning. This sort of thing happens all the time. Giving someone your VPs to let them win is not really much different in my opinion.

[archaeolept]

Originally Posted by rdonj

.

However, on the subject of whether it is acceptable to "throw" a game, I would like to comment. Personally, I have done this, in my second game. It was a noob game and early on, I allied myself with one of my neighbors. I decided I didn't care about winning, so long as the person who guaranteed my not winning was unable to claim victory. So, later in the game, when that player went AI and it was just me, my ally and another player standing, we called the game in favor of my ally, and I had no problem with giving him the win. [...]

If there is a nation which I really don't want to see winning the game, vs a nation who I'm allied with, and I have no chance to win the game myself... I will probably choose to back the one I dislike the least. Even if I'm not the one who wins, it gives me the satisfaction of my "side" winning. This sort of thing happens all the time. Giving someone your VPs to let them win is not really much different in my opinion.

That's an interesting account rdonj, but it does not seem to me to be quite the same. It is one thing to concede, or to have enough players speak out in favour of a certain outcome in order to determine the win; but it is something else entirely to actively throw your vp's to someone in a contested race. At the very least, it would seem to be bad sportsmanship.

In every game, players end up backing some other players - they send them gems, they co-operate in wars, they give advice and information. But I've never seen someone actively work to throw his winning VP's to his ally.

I've asked many times for another example of what happened here having happened in another serious game of dominions, hopefully on these forums, and I have yet to receive any response on the matter.

[DonCorazon]

Thanks for hosting Pasha with your typical impeccable style and grace. I am honored to participate in your games.

Congrats Wraithlord, however you may have won. "All is fair in love and war". If someone did just hand you a VP, well, I personally would never do that since I think both from an RPG and a good sportsman perspective it makes no sense, but suppose there is nothing explicitly against it in the rules and some people do seem to like the idea of being vassals. The Don, however,always chooses to die on his feet, rather than live on his knees... and would hope others to do the same.

But you are quite a charmer I must say, perhaps a little thick with the flattery for my tastes but you seem to be quite effective with others. I called you out as being the one who'd win this game long ago (see thread somewhere a while back), but my own diplomatic energy was drained after Ashdod - I was too fatigued with PMs / coordination to take the lead again in another "alliance", and nobody heeded my warnings. Even still I tried to attack you in the spirit of trying to do what I could, but could see it was going to weaken the defense of my own VPs (even still I refused a formal NAP to hopefully keep you off guard). Thus ended the last offensive of the Pangean war machine.

Even while it was an epic game, I found this game helped crystallize a number of issues I have with certain game settings. Gem generator fatigue for one - I finally got sick of clams and bloodstones and just stopped making them.

Diplomacy for another - and in particular how it often means success can be most readily achieved by turtling/preying on the weak and waiting for others to fight the tough wars. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, and in fact it is known by many that the best way to win wars is never to fight a fair one. And I certainly did my best to make the war against Ashdod lopsided by bringing in anyone I could (but note everyone who fought the big A ultimately lost).

And this leaves something lacking to me in MP games. The most interesting fights are the balanced ones. Yet those are exactly the ones that help everyone else but the nations fighting. i am not sure what the answer is but it bothers me both as a player that relies on the strategy many times, and has been hurt when straying from it a few times. I think the answer is smaller maps / fewer players and/or RAND style games. Either that, or I just need to reserve more time for these diplomatically intense games and remind myself to let others fight the tough wars. I think I prefer the former though.

Another thing that kind of irritates me about Dominions is the undue influence certain indies can have on the game, but i suppose it makes each game interesting. It sure sucks when you don't find anything decent though. Jot's teleporting iron adepts mitigated my own horde of maenads from hostile action, since he could teleport in front of my armies, getting first cast defense advantage and splat my hordes with an RoS. That sucked.

I like the map, though i wish it had a little less movement limiting terrain.

Anyway, that's enough ramblings from a sleep-deprived new dad for now. Good game all, look forward to playing again some time.

[WraithLord]

@rdonj, I have seen what you describe happen many times over. Sometimes it was not one nation but 2-3 that did their best to crown someone. I was many times on the losing side of this and while it was frustrating at the moment. I just took this in good spirit and started thinking what the winner did better than me that I can improve - the answer was almost always the same: diplomacy. In past game I have experienced (and ultimately lost the game to) deceits, hidden trades, transfer of whole gem/item/gold inventory, forge whoring and what not.
Do I personally support this?- Well it is annoying I'll admit, from the noble perspective of everything must be a fair fight. However, I learned that in dominions, like in love, like in war, like in life its not all black and white and romanticized. In diplomacy game you'd always have to deal with this stuff as well. So for now I'm getting more fun out of RAND games but that doesn't say that diplo game are not fun - they just require different mind set to play and enjoy well.

@DonC, Thank you for the congrats. Coming from you - my "incorruptible" arch-enemy this means a lot!
And yes, I meant that bit above. I have considered you my most bitter opponent throughout the game. Had it not been to the fear of you and Caelum jumping me I'd have dealt with Van a lot earlier (with help from friends of course, one doesn't go to wars or parties alone ).
Re. flattery. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. Where I grew up ppl are very emphatic and sympathetic and are generous with compliments. I'm sorry if you find this in bad taste. I truly believe my compliments and I am not using flattery. I hate flattery. I'll try to moderate my compliments when talking to N. Americans as clearly there's a cultural gap here.

I hear what you're saying re. staying out of the tough fights. Let me tell you that I was once in the exact spot where you stand now. Then I lost a few games due to *not* taking action in time (most notable first RAND where I could have made a big difference but b/c I didn't take action ended up losing to Micah).

Gem gens I came to dislike. I want to try a few games w/o them and see if like the settings w/o them.

Indies and luck in the game are things that love in dominions. Sometimes you are benefiting from those sometimes not but they do serve to make each game unique and interesting.

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Now to most important stuff:
Congrats to new DON dad to a newborn
Peace and happiness to the family and may you find some time in the future to cont. playing DOM with us
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[WraithLord]

One more thing. I think AARs are nice and have so far been very lacking in this dpt. (won quite a few games but never did an AAR).
I already got one request to do this AAR. I'd like to know whether this is something that ppl are interested in?- I want to know b/c it takes a lot of work to produce...

@Pasha, could you be so generous as to send to me some (or better, all) of the turn files?- Besides being interesting, I could use that stuff for my AAR.