Helheim - lets burn some rubber

[vfb]

N4 gives you 1HP per turn, and when you've cast mistform that's often enough. It also gives less chance of afflictions.

I like W9 a bit better than E9 because it's nice with the lances, it improves your already good defense, and it multiplies your attacks. And Helheim's probably not going to be casting Quickness, so there's no waste there.

[thejeff]

Agreed, the 1hp regen a turn comes in nice when you start using the VanJarls and get mistform. (Which if you follow it strictly is after you start summoning Tartarians?)

It doesn't help much with initial expansion, though. Maybe reduces afflictions on the Helkarlar.

I agree the suggested force is both weak and hard to recruit at first. If you split the starting troops up, you can field a couple Helkarls, then alternate with dwarfs. If you've got the money, that should give you enough resources to field the Helhirding and Huskarls every other turn.
Still I had a lot of attrition with the Huskarls and the occasional total loss. Maybe I wasn't picky enough with my attacks. Still, if the intent is to get site rich provinces for the dwarfs to search, you've got to have a path to reach them, so sneaking around too much doesn't help. Also, couldn't begin to afford a second castle until I'd taken at least one high-income province.
I tend to play on fairly crowded maps in SP, so that may also be a factor. I didn't have a lot of provinces to choose from.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Sombre

I don't know about 'effectauto' but poison assigned to secondaryeffect will work even when parried and the same is true of various other effects. I haven't tested botulf though, while you have. That would suggest there's something about an effect that decides whether it requires damage to be dealt or not, which is good news for the potential fixing of poison missile weapons.

If it depends on the effect, this might also explain why Lightning Bolt ignores shield parry even though it's not Prec 100.

-Max

[Baalz]

Originally Posted by Loren

I've been trying to play with this and the strategy makes no sense. I have yet to get a start where I have the resources needed to produce the indicated troops early on.

Originally Posted by Baalz

With this blessing you’re going to be able to expand against moderate to weak indies using just a single Helkarl with a single Helhirding and a half dozen huskarls.....After the first two turns you’re going to switch to fielding an expansion party every other turn, alternating with recruiting a dwarf.

Hmmm, the troops I list here cost a total of 84 resources if you recruit everything from scratch, so you should be able to field one every other turn with your capital only resources...but you start out with enough infantry for two of these squads so you shouldn't really have trouble fielding exactly what I suggest. Also, everything I suggest is of necessity a rough suggestion that you'll have to modify in light of how a particular game is going - it's not the end of the world if you have to skip a turn sending out an expansion party. You are going to have to skip the tougher ones, combine expansion parties to attack the slightly tougher oens and you're going to take some total losses. That's Ok, this isn't a recipe for an uber fast expansion, just a decent one. In a theoretic best case scenario with each of those expansion parties conquering one province per turn you're looking at over 50 provinces by the end of year one. Don't aim that high, you'll never make it! Be more modest in your targets, skipping some, pulling some of your armies together, don't worry if you lose a couple, etc. and you should be able to maintain a respectable if not blistering initial expansion until you're ready to start burning rubber.

Also, perhaps I didn't make it clear, but literally going straight for constr-8 then conj-9 is kind of a perfect ideal that you aim for and can hope for if all the stars line up, but realistically it's seldom going to play out perfectly. After constr-4 when your research starts really ramping up it's a pretty quick sidetrack to pick up alt-3, which in combination with constr-4 and the suggested bless (of which 1 point of regen is a critical feature) gives you thugs easily able to handle the harder indies you skipped over initially. If you're then pressed into an early war (or decide to pursue one yourself) I'd also recommend swinging over and picking up cloud trapeze before the full court press to Tartarians. Constr-4 + alt-3 + ench-4 should give you the muscle to fight it out through mid game, those blessed, buffed & equipped vanjarls are pretty tough. If you're really getting pressed by somebody who is laying down solid thug counters you'll obviously have to reroute your research to more urgent goals, but just a touch more alt research and you're throwing down destruction, you've got strength of giants, legions of steel then weapons of sharpness in your planned research path so your glamoured infantry starts being a pretty darned tough more standard army, and your Helhirdlings start looking like some *serious* 0 enc heavy cavalry.

[cleveland]

Originally Posted by Loren

I've been trying to play with this and the strategy makes no sense...

I had similar trouble getting this strat off the ground, but found a nice way to make it work.

I was going to post it here, but it became so long that I'm going to give it it's own thread in the main forum.

Your strategy is really awesome, Baalz.

[Baalz]

Hmmm, a couple people seem to be having trouble getting this opening to work while I'm very consistently able to do it every time I test it. I must be failing to communicate some aspect so let me see if I can clearly show how I do this start. I've attached a zip with the turns starting with the first fight (turn 3). I'll also assert that this was not a particularly lucky start, in fact this was slower than what I usually do with more backtracking due to my capital being placed right against some impassable mountains limiting my options for expansion.

Turn 1: Scout -> prophet, recruit Helkarl & 2 Helhirdings.

Turn 2: Scouting reveals my neighbors are:
30 militia/heavy cavalry
20 militia/archers
40 wolf tribe
50 militia/archers

Seeing only one province I’m confident I can take with the smaller expansion squad I decide to combine them for this turn. From the flanks the Helkarls are scripted to bless and attack rearmost, Hulkarls are holding and attacking and the serf warriors doing the same from behind them. I choose to attack the wolf tribe primarily because it has the most neighbors and thus best prospects for good expansion next turn.

I recruit a dwarf and 4 Huskarls.

Turn 3: Oops. What I outlined in turn 2 was what I meant to do, but apparently I accidentally sent half my army to attack the 20 militia as I had originally considered, and also forgot to send my prophet along for smiting. Oh well, I carry the day anyway as my Helkarl runs back and kills the wolf tribe leaders. Total losses: 1 Huskarl and most of my serf warriors (who I was mostly just trying to kill off anyway).

Attack 20 Militia/archers
Attack 10 militia/heavy cavalry (include my prophet this time!)
Recruit Helkarl, Helherding and 6 more Huskarls

Turn 4: Unlucky roll makes my Huskarls route from militia of all things, but my Helkarl and Helherding escape unscratched. Heavy cavalry dispatched with no casualties.

The Helkarl who ran away collects the Helherding and joins in an attack with the fresh recruits on 30 militias and archers. Other army lacks confidence in all it’s potential targets and falls back to collect reinforcements. Recruit my second dwarf and 10 Huskarls. Prophet moves to where he can support my army next turn.

Turn 5: Battle successful, lost one Huskarl. Split that army up, half attacking 30 militia, half moving into position to attack next turn. 3rd army, having collected reinforcements moves into position for next turn. 2 dwarves head out to site search. Recruit a Helkarl, Helherding and a dozen Huskarls.

Turn 6: Battle successful, no casualties. Scouting reports look grim so I reconsolidate my western squads. Attack 40 militias/heavy cav to the easy and move third army into position. Recruit a dwarf.

Turn 7: Battle successful, no casualties. Time to start saving for a castle, recruit another dwarf. Attack 50 militia/heavy cav with my double Helkarl squad + prophet. Also attack 40 barbarians and 40 lion tribe with armies 2 and 3. 3 dwarves out site searching now.

Turn 8: All attacks successful, total casualties 6 Huskarls (there were a lot of heavy cavalry). Yeah! Found steel ovens which would obviously be great given this strategy if this was a real game. Attack 30 militia/HI, 20 ghouls/longdead, and 30 militia/HI. Recruit another dwarf and some indie commanders to put up extra forts.

Turn 9: All attacks successful, total casualties 3 huskarls. Simultaneously start construction on forts 2&3. Recruit a dwarf, & pull my prophet back to start putting temples in these extra forts. Attack 40 hoburg militia, 70 jaguar tribe (using two Helkarls), and 10 LI/archers.

Turn 10: Ayeee! The 10 light infantry had an air mage. Luckily my rear attacking Helkarl killed him first. Size 1 Hoburgs proved to be pretty good against glamoured troops, they ran me off but the Helkarl & Helhirding survived. Other two attacks successful, total casualties 10 Heurlkarl.


So, I think this is far enough to demonstrate the technique. Turn 10 I've got 15 provinces, 2 castles going up and have several dwarves out site searching, would be cranking out a dwarven hammer and about to start the skull mentor factory if this were a real game. Again, this is pretty consistent with the other tests I've done, I'm not sure what you guys are doing differently. I had some good luck, some bad, but as I mentioned I generally can do a little better with the ability to spread evenly in most directions.

[Immaculate]

Its worth mentioning that orb lightning scales up very well with air power. Having said that, Vanjarls are air 2 and blood 1. Blood 1 brings sabbaths. Perhaps the reader can see the potential for reverse communion sabbaths with storm, storm-power, aim, reverse communion Orb Lightning smack-downs?

Caelum only wishes...

[Tolkien]

If you're reverse communing (always a good idea) and put up stormpower, then why stay with orb lightning when you can spam thunderstrike (and reinvig)?

[Immaculate]

because orb lightning scales with air magic skill?

[Lingchih]

This build did not work for me. I was annihilated by Vanheim. Perhaps I did not use it well. Expansion was great, but when it came time for war, Van beat the crap out of me.