Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS

[JLS]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

quote:

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Originally posted by JLS:

If uncomfortable with changing file, I will upload?

No problem, I am familiar with the files. I will follow your suggestions and am looking forward to the results.

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Great!!!

I can't wait to see your results....

[JLS]

[quote]Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

Originally posted by JLS:
[qb]

What races do you think should excel in Stellar Manipulation?

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Science races should excel in SM, but the others should not be restricted or too poor in it.

Agreed
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Maybe I am wrong, but to me it looks like the most AIs have been programmed to poor SM usage because of the danger to run out of resources due to maintenance costs

AI Campaign Deals with this issue very well,
now the only limits are the imagination of you and I. Restricted only by base SE4 capability Rules.

The challenge now is to keep a balance so the AI won’t be overbearing.

[ March 08, 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Another request for your test:

Please use default 12 galaxies map

Always click finite on before RE-generating a map!
This for all se4 Finite games other wise all planets may have 1k resource.

Large map will also insure the most AI participants in your test

Thanks, again

[ March 08, 2003, 20:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
This looks better, 10 planet start, high bonus, low research costs, after 40 years tech tree is completely researched, resources in treasury is at maximum:

Cryslonite 1st place, 114 planets, 18 systems, good planet development, seen a planet with 3 arcologies, some monoliths, complexes. But a few weird things also: military installations and refining colonies build a lot of space port+resupply depots (e.g. 11 of them + a few distribution centers). Net min resources per turn: approx. 4 million, impossible to use up.

Krill 3rd place, 36 planets, 6 systems, planets with multiple distribution centers and SP+RD also, but they seem to avoid building cities, I do not see even one minor city.

Piundon Last place, 1 system, 1 WP has been opened to an asteroid belt. Planet development looks normal, 1 distribution center, 1 SP+RD, a megalopolis or metropolis, rest research complexes or similar.

UkraTal 2nd place, 9 systems, 48 planets. One or two planets with multiple depots, SP+RDs.

Now it's about to find a compromise where the AI does not run out of resources. For me it looks like the AI seems to stop almost everything when it is lacking resources, could it be true?

JLS' AICampaign looks interesting for another attempt of no-WP-connected. If the AIs even do their job under finite resources...

This is weird !!! They all use basically the same AI_planet_selection file. It just does not look right There should not be much difference in colony development by those races !! The multiple spaceports/distribution centers - are they on the same planet or on different planets in the same system ? If the later - it is the unavoidable Proportions problem. Here is why: When you specify colony type it will be used either in home system or in a new one. Thus, you must somehow include "space port" ability in every planet building queu (you don't know what type will be selected in the first planet in a new system ! Now, the catch is that Cultural ceneter has the "space port" ability. If you list "space port" in, for example "mining colony", AI will try to build Cultural center on every such planet Hence, space ports have bogus ability for AI sake. Unfortunately, when AI utilize this ability, it overlooks preexisting structures in Homeworld. It does result in complete mess if AI colonise faster then it builds new spaceports. I don't know how to solve it.
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Why don't you use "not warp points connected" , large galaxy and cluster type for your game ? It should produce nice small unconnected clusters - ideal for development before serious action ! Ai should behave better too I think

[ March 09, 2003, 02:04: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by oleg:
The multiple spaceports/distribution centers - are they on the same planet or on different planets in the same system ?

They are on the same planet, I have seen some with 12 distribution centers. The distribution centers somehow even make sense because of the empire cargo abilities, but the multiple SP+RD...?
I am going to do some SE4Batch simulations to adjust the necessary AI bonus settings. If I find an example of a late status of a simulated game, I could send a savegame to you to observe. The savegame from the 400 year test has been done with modifications to the racial traits, I am afraid it can just be used together with my modifications.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by JLS:
Another request for your test:

Please use default 12 galaxies map

Always click finite on before RE-generating a map!
This for all se4 Finite games other wise all planets may have 1k resource.

Large map will also insure the most AI participants in your test

Thanks, again

JLS, I am going to try my best, but there are a couple of problems which could have to do with my 400Mhz steam PC or with SE4batch (from Master B.). A setup with max players has not worked, it has stucked/crashed within the first 2 turns. I will try again at my laptop which is faster and more stable.

So far I have done a 100 year test with the Eee and Cue Cappa. Weird, the Eee have not opened WPs although they have the necessary SM techs. OTOH the Cue Cappa open a lot of WPs. And I have seen now what you have done to balance the AI expensive components and facilities
If you are interested, I could send you a zip with backups taken every 5 years (about 3.5 Mbytes).

AIC contains a lot of ideas that I like, especially about the colonizers, starliners and SY ships. But I also miss some of the nice cities of the origin, like metropolis, megalopolis etc. and the huge amount of cargo stocks in cultural centers and the time it takes to build them. But I need some more long term experience with AIC before I get a better picture of it.

Finite resources : I have seen the AI scrapping their homeworlds when the unavoidable 0 of minerals has been reached after about 20 years. It is not that big deal, because of the lower costs of AI cultural centers, but ...

What if cultural centers would have value improvement abilities, maybe just for minerals? Two possible ways:
1) Either 2 or 3% (stacking), so the home world would never run out of resources
2) Difficult, balanced with starting resources in a way that the depletion is slightly below break even point.

I know it is not possible without changing back the facilities.txt if you play without finite resources.

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
They are on the same planet, I have seen some with 12 distribution centers. The distribution centers somehow even make sense because of the empire cargo abilities, but the multiple SP+RD...?
...[/QB]

I never saw it before. Very strange. It simply should not happen ! What is the colony type ? There might be some mistake in AI file or in Facilities.txt file.

[JLS]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

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Thank you for Suggesting the test for AIC in no warp, none finite. PsychoTechFreak. I am sure allot of this information exchange, may be of use to all.
I am curious on:
What map did you use?
The Large map, that was just an optional request for this test here, not a new test request.
Did you regenerate for a good map
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So far I have done a 100 year test with the Eee and Cue Cappa. Weird, the Eee have not opened WPs although they have the necessary SM techs. OTOH the Cue Cappa open a lot of WPs.

Thanks for the info on the Eee, I will make some tweaks.
How did the Cue Cappa colonize? I assume they have many planets?
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If you are interested, I could send you a zip with backups taken every 5 years (about 3.5 Mbytes).

Definitely, please send me the zip file
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AIC contains a lot of ideas that I like, especially about the colonizers, starliners and SY ships. But I also miss some of the nice cities of the origin, like metropolis, megalopolis

I agree with you. However when we were testing with the LAN group the questions arose that in the 'origin', with so many City upgrades, that by the time a human would get to the Megalopolis; in some games, the game may be near over or ended before.
With this in mind the AIC system is a progressive evolution from a early settlement to a vast Colonial Cultural Center.
AIC currantly has Colonial Community, City, Arcology, Colonial Cultural Center.
Certainly more can be added if the majarity wishs.

You could not see this in the DOS test,
but I also added: A refining family as well. Refining Community, Refining Society and Refining Center.
To complement the Agrarian Facility group.
With some neat new Images. Check it out

I also was able to add Race Specific Construction. For example: Crystal Construction that allows the Crystals or what ever race to have some individual Culture Centers from the start. As well as much more options opened now for future upgrades.
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and the huge amount of cargo stocks in cultural centers

We felt that ‘Huge amounts of cargo stocks’ takes away from the challenge of having to Balance an economy... Also new in AIC for example Mining out Posts, Organic Domes and Refining stations that are easy to build and setup on an Astroide or planet, not to mention Trade Centers and a few others to boot.
Resources storage in AIC is increased the same way base SE4 is, by building Storage facilities, with a further incentive of building Urban Centers; that also add Empire Storages as well as research, Min,org and rad resources generation, plus intrinsic and cumulative Imperial trade, intel, etc.~. These are definitely worth building!!!

cultural centers the time it takes to build them

Do you feel that it is to long in AIC to build cultural centers? Actually it may be 20% faster then the 'origin'. And about a 75% faster for a Colony Cultural Center if it had to start from scratch as it is with 'origin'. If the Colony Cultural Center progressively upgrades from the Arcology, it is even faster to construct

But I need some more long term experience with AIC before I get a better picture of it.

I hope you do get a chance to boot up AI Campaign, I would apreaciate all the feed back I can get. And I think you will enjoy it.
My Email address is above or at my site below.
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Finite resources: I have seen the AI scrapping their homeworlds when the unavoidable 0 of minerals has been reached after about 20 years. It is not that big deal, because of the lower costs of AI cultural centers

In regards to scraping ships or Base Yards !
How many Planets, ships and bases and units did each have???
The AI had to have allot of ship, or the AI would not have scraped anything!
And this is good, right. In a one planet, no warp, Finite Game!

How many units and what make up was on there home worlds?
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I can program this AI to have (THOUSANDS+) of the Highest level Base Ships and Dreadnoughts (any ship or base) with out the AI Blinking in regards to Maintenance and they wont scrap anything in AIC.

I can prepare a test file on the above for you to see for yourself and post. I will have it for you tomorrow… OK?
But this is not necessary all you have to do is check out the vehicle Data file and search the AI balance Techs. With this I can set the AI to Pay no Maintenance on any ship we want, and they will never scrap anything.

But what would that do for play balance against Human players… The best way to keep the AI Players that are lucky enough to Colonize a lot of planets, in check; is Maintenance other wise the Human Player would have NO chance. Not to mention AI's with only a few planets by bad start being gobbled by large prolific AIs.
After you check out the Vehicle file, and understand, let us know with a Post what you think… Please !!!

In regards to scraping in itself, this is no big deal (like growing pains for the AI), even if/when the AI scraps some Base Yards or some lower prioritized ships, do to a better researched tech retrofits (as it relates to total increased maintenance) he will just rebuild (better ships then) what he scraped; when he upgrades resources facilities, colonize new planets etc…. As a human would! Well some humans may scrap most just(mothball)
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What if cultural centers would have value improvement abilities, maybe just for minerals? Two possible ways:
1) Either 2 or 3% (stacking), so the home world would never run out of resources

Good question (Planet Value improvement) abilities, this has been mentioned a few times by players, matter a fact Oleg form you Last test mention this.
Think about this, if this was ON a AI Cultural center, that planet Value would sky Rocket, true. and if captured by a human player in a multiplayer game, the game would now be way unbalanced for all other human players.
If this is installed to benefit system colonies then ROCK AI could rule to the Prolific nature of rock planets se4.
As you will see in the Vehicle Data file, this facility will be unnecessary any way for the AI!

Now with this said, in all the AIC games I and many others have played, the AI makes hundreds of ships!!! As we all will see when you post the total ships and there make up in your DOS test. Then they scrap ships as there Components techs increases to a lower amount but with much more potent ships.

How ever, if you think the AI should get more ships in this One planet, No warp, Finite game test. Let me know and I can give the AI any number of ships form 1 to 200000 thru the Vehicle data file, under AI Balance. But remember, a human will have the same disadvantages in one Planet, on warp, finite, what situation would he/she be in, when/if opened warp in 10 or 20 years and what would you want the AI to look like. Do you have that 20 Year AI ship count for Cue Cappa and Eee!!!. The AI may be more balanced then you think at that 20 year mark, in a one Planet, no warp, finite

2) Difficult, balanced with starting resources in a way that the depletion is slightly below break even point.

If I understand your statement correctly:
This is regards to Finite: There must be a depletion, if there was none, then if captured by a human player with CCs in tact that Human player will have a planet that never depletes. Giving that human a great advantage over another in Multiplayer games.

Note: All specific resource generation is intrinsic and cumulative when Finite off. As it states in the read me file!
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Thank you for the heads up on the Eee, and I look forward to the test save game; you may Email to the Address below and we look forward to seeing the Post on 20 year Ship/base counts and makeup DD, CV, BB etc and Home World unit counts as well… Or I can post from the save if you like.

Thank you very much for the effort you put into this test… I look forward to Tweaking the Eee as per you recommendations…

In regards to tweaking this AI. Approximately, how many turns do you think would elapse for a human to achieve enough warp to exit his one system. In one planet, no warp, Finite game? Do you think I should target this AI to achieve warp before or after the human achieves his goals as well as warp?

Also is it possible for a human Player; to deplete his planets of resources prior to receiving warp tech in a one system, no warp, FINITE game.

John.

[ March 10, 2003, 08:14: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by oleg:

quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
They are on the same planet, I have seen some with 12 distribution centers. The distribution centers somehow even make sense because of the empire cargo abilities, but the multiple SP+RD...?
...

I never saw it before. Very strange. It simply should not happen ! What is the colony type ? There might be some mistake in AI file or in Facilities.txt file.[/QB]

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This morning I have stopped a simulation with your some 8 AIs after 92 years. It took about 10 hours (JLS, I guess we need to test max. 2-3 AIs at a time to get some reasonable longterm data, I have not yet got it started on my laptop, it is a winXP problem. And I will reply to your to your long reply, but I need some time for it).

I have just taken extensive looks over the planets and I have not yet seen the phenomenon above any more, but maybe it is a kind of interim thing somewhere around 50 years.
Setup was: unmodded proportions 2.5.3.1, SE4 Gold patch 3, 1 planet (good/rich) start, low bonus, no WP connected, infinite resources. Backup taken every 5 years.
With this setup the AI did not run out of resources, I need to find a slightly lower bonus setup somewhere at the threshold between rich and poor...

I am not sure if I can take a deeper look into the sim files tonight, I will not be at home before 10:30 p.m.

The zip is 5.7 Mbyte and I have it taken (burned on CD) to my office. Do you want me to send it to your attention, oleg? Be honest, please... if you do not find the time, I will observe the files tomorrow (latest).

[oleg]

I think I know what happend when one AI build 15 resupply depots on one planet ! In fact, it is quite funny:

As posted before, Proportions' AI can not use "spaceport" and "resupply depot" abilities to select buildings - it will start to buils Cultural centers everywhere. Insted, it uses "emergency energy" as a codename for "spaceport" and "emergency resupply" for "supply depot". Only spaceports and resupply depots have these bogus abilities. But buildings under "large support facilities" do not have these bogus abilities ! It was PvL# idea and I'll talk about it later. AI is not suppose to "know" about "large support facilities" - There is no such entry in any AI research files. So normally AI build spaceports/resupply depots without any problems. Now, suppose AI find "large support facilities" tech. in ruins, steal from humman player or somehow else. Now, when it builds Spaceport/Resupply depot, it can UPGRADE them to better buildings, but after the upgrade buildings LOSE bogus abilities. AI is still instructed by construction_facilities file to build buildings with "emergency energy" and "emergency resupply". Thus, it builds new one, upgrade, build...

If Pvk restores bogus abilities to "large support facilities" this problem would never arise ! And there is no danger AI will build expensive facilities - it stilll can not research "large support facilities" tech !

Actually, this build-upgrade loop can be used for AI benefits - what if we assign some bogus ability to minor cities only and use it in AI files ? Even after AI discovers large cities, it will always build minor cities first and then upgrade Exactly what we, humans do in Proportions games