Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Norfleet]

Meh. I tend to hate safety features. Safety features are for the weak and timid! I prefer my things to be unsafe and pose a severe health hazard to the ignorant and uninitiated. It's more fun that way, because it limits their usage to me.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Blitz]

If you can't figure out how to use the Asynja

I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it.

[PvK]

How about if you have two or more Groups on Guard commander (guarding the same commander) - maybe that would disable the safety feature, if you want to.

PvK

[PvK]

Ok, first injuries were from an unlikely source - Blowpipes and Woodsmen!

A lucky blowpipe shot managed to kill a Myrmidon! Very lucky shot, I guess. Then, the druid put my Shedu to sleep with the Sleep spell! Of course, I had timed the attack properly so that, even though I still had no flying escorts for the Shedu, they barely hurt him while he was unconscious, and the Myrmidons and Cardaces arrived the next turn to wipe them out. The Shedu took a chest wound though - time to heal. My luck improved the next turn though as I set my priestess to heal as the Shedu flew in for repairs, and he was healed immediately. Back to action, and now I have a few fliers for escort.

Sadly, I do need to get some sleep, as a ridiculous work week lies ahead, so the experiment will be on hiatus for a while. However, I am not at all displeased with the results so far. The only real weak point I see is the low resources versus the costs of the good units. However Cardaces cost almost no resources, and serve the purpose of having men to help kill indies with at first. When a Shedu is scheduled to go wipe out the rear (especially when escorted), Cardaces can fill the gap for a while.

PvK

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it.

Well, the Asynja is not what I would call "good", but she's not unplayably awful. However, she seems to fall into an uncomfortable middle ground between the Titan and Allfather: Not quite as good an Air-bless chassis as the Titan, as the Titan gets to A9 more cheaply, and not as good a fighter as the Allfather, since she is not immune to armor encumberance and her paths are less versatile.

The primary problem with the Asynja is not really her stats, but the fact that she fails to fill any niche that the Allfather or Titan cannot do better.

[Graeme Dice]

[quote]Originally posted by Blitz:

I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it.

Whether or not she is better than the Allfather is completely irrelevant to the question of whether she is useless or not. Will you please stop bringing up red herrings and pretending that they are valid arguments?

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Pretender: Nataraja
Cost: Squat
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 222
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total Cost: 0 + 160 + 80 + 244 + 21 = 505

Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol.

Well, first, as even you point out, you _can't_ get the Nataraja like that (which number is correct, 222 or 244?). Second, I've used both a Shedu and a Nataraja, and without equipment (i.e., very early in the game), a Shedu is much better.

Also, IIRC, the Nataraja only gets one miscellaneous slot. This causes problems when you want to boost his paths. Ironically, the only slots that matter for boosting Astral magic are the Head and Misc. slots, and that means that the Shedu can boost his Astral magic more than the Nataraja.

Something else you miss is that the Shedu is more economical than the Nataraja at boosting his initial paths past 4. This means that, should I want to have a better blessing than a simple 4S4E, the Shedu is definitely the better choice.

Finally, a friendly piece of advice for you: "Those who say something cannot be done should get out of the way of the people doing it."

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Pretender: Wurm
Cost: 75
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Air 1 Nature 1
Cost: 100
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total cost: 426 points (spend the rest as you wish)

Mm-hmm.

Now you got a much better expander,

Can you give me data showing this? Even aside from the tactical considerations (such as the difference in kill rate), the fact that the Shedu flies means that strategically you are less constrained in which provinces you attack.

and later in the game he can sit in the lab and forge rainbow armor instead of shroud of the battle saint!

Let's compare them, shall we?

Rainbow Armor:
Cost: 5 Air + 5 Nature gems
Prot 8
Def: 1
Enc: 1
MR: +3
Reinv: +3

Shroud of the Battle Saint (4E4S):
Cost: 5 Astral gems
Prot: 5
Def: 0
Enc: 0
MR: +1
Reinv: +2

Now that's the surface. Now, considering that we are talking about mages, that means the Enc will be doubled for the purposes of fatigue, to 2. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor +1, not +3. Assuming that Quickness is put up (and when we're talking about Arco's Mystics in Communion, this assumption is pretty fair), this Enc should be removed twice for 2 spells being cast per turn. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor -1.

There is also the fact that the Shroud costs half as much as the Rainbow Armor (which we'll ignore because of the better Prot and Def Ratings of the Rainbow Armor).

Finally, you have to consider that Arco has no easy access to nature gems to forge the Rainbow armor. The Shroud, OTOH, is much more easily obtainable.

He's trying to demonstrate that in order to get a earth 4 /astral 4 blessing on your mystics through use of a shroud of the battle saint, the Shedu is the best pretender choice.

Actually, I believe my statement was that if you wanted Earth magic, Astral Magic, and a high Dominion on your Pretender, the Shedu was the best choice. The E4/S4 blessing is only one ramification of such a strategy.

Why one would go to such lengths to achieve such a thing is irrelevant. Clearly the Nataraja is superior, even under the conditions most favorable to the Shedu.

This is not true from my experiences using both.

You could also achieve similar results with a Son of the Sun (the astral Version), which is of course available to arcoscophile.

Actually, the difference in point costs is 1 point in favor of the Son of the Sun, and that is negligible. Also, if you increase Earth beyond 4, it starts to favor the Shedu. The Son of the Sun also is nowhere near the early combat pretender the Shedu is.

No, even when seeking the allpowerful earth/astral blessing, the Shedu still sucks. Sorry.

Your tone needs work here.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blitz:
I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it.

Whether or not she is better than the Allfather is completely irrelevant to the question of whether she is useless or not. Will you please stop bringing up red herrings and pretending that they are valid arguments?

---

Here's one suggestion:

Asynja
Air-4
Earth-3
Nature-3

Tested twice using

Theme: Midgard
Order +3
Production +3
Cold +1
Drain +2
Dominion: 5
Castle

and

Theme: Midgard
Order +3
Cold +1
Magic +1
Dominion: 5
Castle

Remarks:

(1) Cheaper than a Titan or Allfather with similar magic.

(2) Compliments Midgard's magic rather nicely. (As a matter of fact, with this pretender you can eventually achieve level 5+ in every path magic using only national mages and Construction 2-6 items - right, no empowerment, no indies, nada.)

(3) Lots of good early buffs early - Mistform, Mirror Image, Personal Regen, etc. - making full use of her potential early. I chose Earth and Nature above Water and Death because (a) regen is a must have for an early SC (b) Earth magic is a dead end for Midgard without at least 2 levels on the pretender (c) Quickness is great but you can get it on boots eventually (d) Soul Vortex is great but isn't available as soon as the other buffs.

How does this Asynja compare to a Titan with the same skills? She loses the shock resistance, but she's cheaper and come with better fighting skills. Rather positive.

How does she compare to the Allfather? Well, to make the best use of his starting magic, you'll want to buy a couple extra levels of Death, as well as a couple levels of Water to take advantage of the cheap paths. And probably reduce his air magic to 3 to get one more tick in a scale. Such an Allfather would be superior, but it comes with a 80 points deficit - and loses the air-4 blessing as well. So it depends on whether you want the stronger scales or not. If the former, this Asynja is still an impressive fighter.


With the other 2 themes you may want to buy her different magic paths.

[Blitz]

Honestly, I am sick of this. Both of you have already admitted that the Shedu is overcosted, which pretty much is the whole damn point. While yes, the Shedu does fill the niche of "early flying trampler for people who want an earth-astral blessing", in all honesty that is a very limited role of extremely dubious merit.

Can you give me data showing this? Even aside from the tactical considerations (such as the difference in kill rate), the fact that the Shedu flies means that strategically you are less constrained in which provinces you attack.

Kill rate is pretty much irrelevant. What matters for a pretender used for expansion is that the chassis can clear out a province of independants. The wurm, with it's huge regeneration bonus will under most circumstances be operating with a much higher hit point total. In addition he isn't going to collapse in a heap halfway through the battle and require assistance from your other troops. If you really want to achieve a fast opening with Arcoscephale, I'd probably reccomend the Virtue. Her impressive awe rating means that she's virtually invulnerable to damage from indepandants. She also flies, is much more useful in the lategame, and her lack of trample is quite frankly seen as a bonus by most players who know what they are talking about.

Now that's the surface. Now, considering that we are talking about mages, that means the Enc will be doubled for the purposes of fatigue, to 2. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor +1, not +3. Assuming that Quickness is put up (and when we're talking about Arco's Mystics in Communion, this assumption is pretty fair), this Enc should be removed twice for 2 spells being cast per turn. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor -1.

Again, a convoluted strategy of forged shrouds of the battle saint and an earth 4, astral 4 blessing just really isn't a very efficient use of a pretender god.

Finally, a friendly piece of advice for you: "Those who say something cannot be done should get out of the way of the people doing it."

Frankly I doubt either of you were doing anything at all with the Shedu before, and I highly doubt that either of you will play much with him ever again. He's not a cost-efficient pretender chassis, and certianly not comparable to the other pretender gods available to Arcoscephale. While calling him useless may be somewhat of an exageration, there quite simply are better ways to spend your design points than on this chassis. Your mystics can already cast most high-level earth and astral rituals without help, so a pretender god with earth/astral is really not as valuable to Arcoscephale. You don't need a "golem summoner" when you can simply forge a starshine skullcap and cast it with a fairly common 2-earth mage.

While this thread was meant to be a discussion of the golden era theme, it has become a forum for defending the shedu... a chassis that I've never seen in a MP game. If you find absolute terms such as "useless" so offensive and need to take it upon yourself to prove otherwise, by all means be my guest.

[ June 21, 2004, 18:06: Message edited by: Blitz ]