Fire vs. Death heavy bless

[Agema]

I think betting a strategy on a gem type or mage you can't easily access is a recipe for disaster.

I think we'll all have played games where we've had shockingly bad, or even no income, in certain gem types, including gems that are fairly integral to the nations (I've played EA Agartha, 30 provinces fully searched, total death income of 3). Finding mages is even worse: I want to weep when I read guides that blithely say things like "Get an indy X mage" (unless X = nature), because sure as hell I've played quite enough games where I can't find any.

[KissBlade]

Originally Posted by K

But, I do understand how people's strategy to winning the game is often just "win more battles", making more complex strategies seem impossible.

Bad strategies seem impossible. And the problem with most "complex" strategies is it leaves little room for calculating your opponent's moves/strategies.

[K]

Originally Posted by Agema

I think betting a strategy on a gem type or mage you can't easily access is a recipe for disaster.

I think we'll all have played games where we've had shockingly bad, or even no income, in certain gem types, including gems that are fairly integral to the nations (I've played EA Agartha, 30 provinces fully searched, total death income of 3). Finding mages is even worse: I want to weep when I read guides that blithely say things like "Get an indy X mage" (unless X = nature), because sure as hell I've played quite enough games where I can't find any.

Oh I agree. I can't tell you the number of times I've played an Air nation like Caelum only to find my provinces have no air income or played a Blood nation and found that all my provinces have like 2K people or that someone beat me to the unique demons and suddenly all my endgame plans are dust.

But some plan is better than no plan. It's a self-deception if you think you can just make a nation based on a few battle tactics and respond to the conditions of the game and pull out a win.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make. Is getting a decent bless with endgame uses and searching for Death gems with the plan of casting the Utterdark the "super-winna of all planz"?

No. But it does beat "and then I Bless Rush people and just have more stuff." Bless Rushes are fine if you are playing vs one opponent and once he's dead you win the game. Bless Rushes are also fine if you are playing on a very large map and can expect to own 30-40 provinces before you meet your next neighbor (and he'll own 10-15 by then).

But for any other situation, a Bless Rush is just an early game tactic and not a game-winning strategy.

It works like this. On a big map, a Bless nation starts taking a province a turn around turn 2 or 3. By turn 7-8, he's taking two a turn. By 15 he's taking 3 a turn(the rate slows as he needs to start backtracking and moving to the front). By turn 20 when he runs out of indie provinces he attacks his first enemy and he has a ton of crap and he grinds down lesser nations.

On a merely large or medium map, he runs out of provinces and attacks his first enemy on turn 12. Instead of having three or four times the provinces of his enemy, he has maybe 150% the provinces. If the enemy can smash his initial army, chances are good they can be on his doorstep before he can even build a replacement. Game over.

And that's your gamble. You have invested heavily in your early game in the hopes that it will bootstrap you into a strong late game.

But, it still won't win the game. A game-winning strategy sounds like this: "and then I do it, and start taking five or more enemy provinces a turn while losing almost no troops and none of my own provinces."

Casting the Utterdark when properly prepared can do that. Building badass SCs when other people can't can do that. Building a giant stockpile of Blood summons that costs no support and then unleashing them on enemies while you paralyze their troop production with ritual magic and execute armies with Horrors can do that. Building unbreakable armies like Blessed Gandarvas, or Mandaha-backed Demon armies, or armies backed by mages with gem-producing items who cast battlefield-destroying magic that they are immune to can win you the game. Putting up the Astral Nexus and getting a gem income in the hundreds and then using that to get piles of summons or ritual magics can do that too. Running around with ten tough armies who can Astral Travel or otherwise skip over enemy armies and dissect enemy empires can do that. Building Master Enslave mages who usurp entire enemy armies can do that.

The list is long, but "bless rush" is not on it.

So yes, I rate Death higher than Fire because it opens a tactic to winning the game you otherwise might not have. Opinions will vary.

[chrispedersen]

It doesn't work like that *at all*

As a bless nation I take
1 the second turn.
2 the third.
3 the fourth.

Somewhere after that you start to be limited by geography.
But my usual target for mictlan or lanka is 48 or so territories before the end of year 2. And usually I avoid players as long as I can.

Of course I prefer maps with many adjacent territories. And bless strategies have won me *many* games.

[thejeff]

Yeah, hate to say it K, but your progression there sounds more like standard non-bless/SC pretender expansion.
A real bless rush strategy should let you send out a indy-clearing army at least every other turn. And on smaller maps, you're gunning for that first neighbor. (And hoping he isn't doing the same.)

I agree you need more of a plan than bless rush and win your first war, but don't underestimate how much of an advantage a fast start can be.

[TheDemon]

More territory translates rather directly into more gem income and more blood income. You will agree that a more effective bless means faster territory gain? But that's only the first step, you need to follow it up with more forts and more sitesearching and more bloodhunting. There's no reason you can't pursue a so-called "game winning" strategy in addition to supercharged expansion with a strong bless.

So yes, a bless means you have "more stuff", but it does not mean simply "more sacreds".

[K]

Originally Posted by thejeff

Yeah, hate to say it K, but your progression there sounds more like standard non-bless/SC pretender expansion.
A real bless rush strategy should let you send out a indy-clearing army at least every other turn.

You'll note I said "take a province" and not "send out an army". Practical matters such as being able to reach new indies or being forced to go around provinces with something crazy like 30 knights or six Dark Vines or something means you most likely won't be consistently hitting the benchmarks until the turns I outlined. Its more a matter of the geography of your map more than anything else, so you might be much faster if there are lots of connections on your map and no impassable mountains or special indies that require you to merge two or more province-taking armies.

But yeh, on very large maps where you can actually enter 48 indie provinces before meeting a neighbor, you don't need any other tactic. I totally said that. In fact, I wrote a page explaining that.

It is not a coincidence that people believe that Bless Rushing is very powerful AND people like to play on very large maps.

[Frozen Lama]

K- just go and try a F9W9 bless rush. on turn 3, it is entirely possible to take 2 provs with jags. on turn 4, you can take 3, unless you happen to have a capital with only 2 neighbors. you don't circle you cap first of course. if you have 4 neighbor provs, turn 5 your taking 4 provs. just go try it. its insane to think a bless rush nation won't take 2 provs a turn until turn 7

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Frozen Lama

K- just go and try a F9W9 bless rush. on turn 3, it is entirely possible to take 2 provs with jags. on turn 4, you can take 3, unless you happen to have a capital with only 2 neighbors. you don't circle you cap first of course. if you have 4 neighbor provs, turn 5 your taking 4 provs. just go try it. its insane to think a bless rush nation won't take 2 provs a turn until turn 7

Connections isn't sufficient. I mean, unless jags are far more awesome than i think they are, a bloodhenge druid province will stop you cold. As will any number of other nasty independents. So if you see nothing but tribal warriors and militia/archer/infantry combinations, sure, i believe you. And while K might underestimate the speed a little, i think you vastly overestimate based on the assumption 1 turns production of jaguars can take *any* indie province.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Connections isn't sufficient. I mean, unless jags are far more awesome than i think they are, a bloodhenge druid province will stop you cold. As will any number of other nasty independents. So if you see nothing but tribal warriors and militia/archer/infantry combinations, sure, i believe you. And while K might underestimate the speed a little, i think you vastly overestimate based on the assumption 1 turns production of jaguars can take *any* indie province.

Squirrel, both you and K are *very* wrong. Jags are just as good as I say they are.
jags laugh at cavs, cat, elephants.

Its the *slingers* you worry about not the elephants. slingers and archers have a tendency to kill your blessing cleric about one time in three.

I'm not *assuming* anything - the last 4 games I have played as mictlan the low was 38 territories by the end of year 2. High was 50 something.

Sure BHD might cause you to leap frog around. But you *want* to leap frog. The idea is capture as many territories as possible and fill in later.