vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+ ?

[NTJedi]

I'm sure the community could brainstorm ways of improving assassination battles to make more sense, I've provided several good starting examples. Unfortunately we're not going to see anything changing with Dominions_3.

Hopefully assassination battles will be improved within DOM_4 to be more logical and historically accurate.

[johan osterman]

It is not likely to be a dom4 in the foreseeable future.

[NTJedi]

johan osterman said:
It is not likely to be a dom4 in the foreseeable future.

I realize we won't see a DOM_4 for at least 4 years... maybe 10 years, but based on the success of DOM_3 I believe it has a good chance of happening.

[kasnavada]

triqui said:
Cummulative fatigue is a posibility, but might lead to a situation where both armies fall asleep and both armies "die". who win then? attacker? defender? Draw and the province become indie?

All of this is details and possibilities. There are a dozen solutions to this, and that's not my game. I can however, tell you a system that makes sense, of course :

The province enters a contested state where no one controls it, nor change the tax, nor recruit in it, assassination targets anyone not of your nation (I assume the assassin is able to see the difference between his own race and the other ones), the contested province could stay that way for years. Both armies would be in the province too, and the contested state would prevent you from giving them orders.

That is ONE solution among many that make it work. It could require too much changes to game mechanics. I propose it anyway, who knows, maybe it'll be there for dominions 4.

Either the attacker won, and has the province, or lost, and defender hold it. Otherwise you are just provoking much more complicated issues and endangering even more bugs into the battle.

The very point of the proposal I made is to change the fact that there is a winner in that fight. As far as provoking more "complicated issues and endangering even more bugs into the battle" that is what every single change to the fight system does, so obviously, this one would also cause some.

For the fatigue system : just make it so the damage is taken unit per unit in order of initiative, or taken attacker first, then defender, solves the problem.

With all due respect, I really don't get why you put a point of stopping any thoughts of an answer that work to point the "impossibilies" that are easily bypassed, and have multiple solutions. Can't you just try to say "that won't work unless you do this and this ? maybe this would solve the problem too ?" instead of purposely blocking the discussion with "that doesn't work". That's how discussions advance. Ho, and don't take it personally. Other people on forums do this. I never understand why.


EDIT : somethings that didn't make sense.

[triqui]

kasnavada said:

All of this is details and possibilities. There are a dozen solutions to this, and that's not my game. I can however, tell you a system that makes sense, of course :

The province enters a contested state where no one controls it, change the tax, control it, assassination targets anyone not of your nation (I assume the assassin is able to see the difference between his own race and the other ones), the contested province could stay that way for years. Both armies would be in the province too, and the contested state would prevent you from giving them orders.

I dont think that makes any sense from a thematic point of view. Two warriors fighting in the same province for years with no rest? That destroy my suspension of disbelief.

The very point of the proposal I made is to change the fact that there is a winner in that fight. As far as provoking more "complicated issues and endangering even more bugs into the battle" that is what every single change to the fight system does, so obviously, this one would also cause some.

I still it does not make sense from a game design point of view. Games HAVE rules to avoid infinite cycles for a reason. Chess have a rule to end the game if there is a perpetual check situation for example.

With all due respect, I really don't get why you put a point of stopping any thoughts of an answer that work to point the "impossibilies" that are easily bypassed,

Becouse of a science principle called "occam razor". It *^might^* be possible to get a solution that avoid every possible danger and exploit in a perpetually stalled province (imagine a battle like that in someones capitol...). The point is.. WHY bothering with it? Finishing the battle at a point (turn 50) is easier and cleaner. The only problem is when some unit does not behave as it is supposed in the turn limit (like not retreating at turn 50). Otherwise, it is a thousand miles ahead a better solution than putting a province in some weird limbo for several months.

[Foodstamp]

Here is a quick fix for you guys so you will not have to deal with Vengeance of the Dead. Copy what I have typed below into a new notepad document, "save as", "all file types" novotd.dm. This mod takes VOTD out of the game. Go into preferences, choose mod options, select this mod.

#modname "No VotD"
#domversion 3.15
#description "This mod eliminates VotD"
#version 1.0
#selectspell 660
#school -1
#end

[triqui]

Foodstamp said:
Here is a quick fix for you guys so you will not have to deal with Vengeance of the Dead. Copy what I have typed below into a new notepad document, "save as", "all file types" novotd.dm. This mod takes VOTD out of the game. Go into preferences, choose mod options, select this mod.

#modname "No VotD"
#domversion 3.15
#description "This mod eliminates VotD"
#version 1.0
#selectspell 660
#school -1
#end

I think JO has just said that it works as it is intended, so my grief with the spell vanishes completelly. It is not that i dont like the spell or i dont like to lose SC. My problem was that, in my opinion, the spell was working buggy. If it is not, i dont have any problem with it, as i dont have any problem with mind hunt. I might like the spell more working differently, but as long as it work WAD, I'm comfortable with it.

[kasnavada]

Triqui :
Reinvigorisation and regeneration could make a person involved not sleep during a whole month. It's magic. Once again, you see a block where there is none.

About the fact that "Finishing the battle at a point (turn 50) is easier and cleaner.", in your opinion maybe. In my opinion, it's messing the game up, because somehow, as was said by someone else : "why do all troops stop to fight at 5pm and golems stop at 8 pm ?".

The Occam's razor states that the simplest solution is the right one. In case you don't know, it's not always true, that is the very definition of a "principle". Check wikipedia if you do not trust me, especially the "Controversial aspects of the Razor" section. Also, I personally do not care at all about the simplest solution. I propose solution(s) that make sense in a certain mindset, and whether it's complicated or not is not taken into consideration. Then whoever is in charge decides to implement it or not. That's also the reason why I do not try to destroy the solutions of other people because they do not make sense to me.

"Otherwise, it is a thousand miles ahead a better solution than putting a province in some weird limbo for several months."
That is what "contested" means. It's not a weird limbo... and it's done in other strategy games too. I really do not see what is shocking you, but, I respect your opinion. It's not like I'm going to convince you to like it. I can only show you that it can work.

Again, I say that the solutions I proposed here are only proposals. I'll contradict you if you're saying that they don't work when they do, but if your prefer another one, feel free to take time to think about it and post your solution. It's far more productive and useful than wasting your time by trying to destroy the other solutions that works, only because you do not like them.

Once again, I do not mean harm. It's just something that I don't understand in people behaviour. Bashing a solution that works instead of finding another one that also solves the problem seems like a waste of time to me...

[Foodstamp]

The mod gives you the option to create new MP games without VotD if you like. I am also willing to create a mod that eliminates everything that you guys are deeming exploits in other threads:

Vengeance of the Dead
Mists of Deception
Sickle whose Crop is Pain
Twiceborn

I can't mod out the retreating after casting enchantments or prevent people from hexediting files.

[triqui]

kasnavada said:
the other solutions that works

That your solution "works" is (quoting you know) ONLY YOUR OPINION. I firmly believe your "solution" does not "work" at all for the reasons i mentioned before.