Conceptual Balance Mod 1.4

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Turin

Since this is effectively worthy heroes feedback, I'll reply:

Thanks. Continuing only on those where I still disagree:

Originally Posted by Turin

Member of the third tier: black priests have 12, so I don't think 13 hp is too much for a hero unit.

But he's an Illuminati mage, not a priest!

Originally Posted by Turin

Anthromachus: The problem was that it's really hard to make an army leader hero interesting/ worthwile compared to a bunch of indie commanders. His description mentions him being reputedly immortal, so I just made him immortal for real.

But he is free! Banner, etc., I think would be enough. And making him able to outlive Egypt, Greece and Byzntine Empire looks, er... hilarious. Immortality is possible, but I don't think it needed - and real immortality is almost unheard of in Greece mythology.

Originally Posted by Turin

Master with the Iron Crutch: He has the body of a crippled old man. Why should he be tougher?

Because he's Taoist Immortal with a title surely calling to mind some Chinese movies. You know what I'm talking about...

Originally Posted by Turin

Abasi: From the description:"He quickly flayed the animal and used the skin to swim unseen past his enemies. When he had passed the guards, he found himself in the camp of the enemy king. He took his log and thrashed the camp before the enemies could react." Sounds like an assasination to me.

And like stealthy thug to me. In any case, Machaka already has assassins aplenty. And term "assassinate" looks out of place in speech patterns of his description (somewhat stylized for tribal/Wild West story), so should be removed anyway.

Originally Posted by Turin

Ebuart: Castle def could be dropped, but it's a small buff and he is a guardian so it's somewhat fitting.

Maybe Guardian of the Tree should be better with a Patrol Bonus?

Originally Posted by Turin

Dwarf Elder: Again a (probably necessary) nerf from qm. They had forgebonus 20 in my version, which is probably too powerful, but forgebonus 10 would be nice.

Yes, I also think 20 is too big, but 10 OK (don't remember which bonuses varied ranks of Ulm Smiths have, but surely more) - and it looks more thematic for dwarves then research bonus...

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Wrana

Thanks. Continuing only on those where I still disagree:

But he's an Illuminati mage, not a priest!


But he is free! Banner, etc., I think would be enough. And making him able to outlive Egypt, Greece and Byzntine Empire looks, er... hilarious. Immortality is possible, but I don't think it needed - and real immortality is almost unheard of in Greece mythology.


Because he's Taoist Immortal with a title surely calling to mind some Chinese movies. You know what I'm talking about...


And like stealthy thug to me. In any case, Machaka already has assassins aplenty. And term "assassinate" looks out of place in speech patterns of his description (somewhat stylized for tribal/Wild West story), so should be removed anyway.

Maybe Guardian of the Tree should be better with a Patrol Bonus?

Yes, I also think 20 is too big, but 10 OK (don't remember which bonuses varied ranks of Ulm Smiths have, but surely more) - and it looks more thematic for dwarves then research bonus...

The dreaded multiquote. I'll try to reply:

Basically most of your suggestions might be somewhat more thematical, but would result in less interesting gameplay. For example patrol is pretty useless on a high level mage like the Guardian.
For the Machaka hero: His low stealth rating already makes him more of a brute force assassin and as a simple stealth thug he would be rather worthless. Would you use him instead of a simple banelord?
Regarding teh term assassinate: You are right, it does not fit. Do assassins have their own symbol now? In dom2 there was no way to tell if a unit was capable of assassinations apart from the description text.


Anthromachus: Heroes are not free, you need to take the luck scale and more importantly you would have got a useful hero if the useless one wasn't in the game. Without immortality he would be about the same as 3 indy commanders.

Regarding Lanka's multiheroes(which I missed in my earlier post): Lanka got by far the best multiheroes, so they are more of an exception. More importantly they are still far less powerful than the most powerful EA heroes like the Niefel Hero or the Hinnom guys.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Turin

The dreaded multiquote. I'll try to reply:
Basically most of your suggestions might be somewhat more thematical, but would result in less interesting gameplay. For example patrol is pretty useless on a high level mage like the Guardian.

It's quite useful if you want to keep a province around your castle, for example.

Originally Posted by Turin

For the Machaka hero: His low stealth rating already makes him more of a brute force assassin and as a simple stealth thug he would be rather worthless. Would you use him instead of a simple banelord?

Banelord isn't stealthy. And requires research, of course...

Originally Posted by Turin

Anthromachus: Heroes are not free, you need to take the luck scale and more importantly you would have got a useful hero if the useless one wasn't in the game. Without immortality he would be about the same as 3 indy commanders.

Do you say that luck is useless otherwise? And his description points at him useful as commander, not a thug (of course, there are not many things which make commander both useful and unique in the game right now. Still...). Of course, you can use 3 indy commanders. Or Sleeper. Or Banelord. Or GoR someone. You think this means you don't have use for a hero which has shown up??

Originally Posted by Turin

Regarding Lanka's multiheroes(which I missed in my earlier post): Lanka got by far the best multiheroes, so they are more of an exception. More importantly they are still far less powerful than the most powerful EA heroes like the Niefel Hero or the Hinnom guys.

Don't you think that Niefel is a special case? Namely, they already have something quite similar in their recruitables. Lanka, on the other hand, while being quite powerful as is, have no access to such er... nastyness. And they can use it all right! As for it being an exception - I can only say that it was what seemed the most horrible...

[Tifone]

I see the reason of several of your points wrana but some of the ones you suggest would be very big changes that go against the purpose of the mod as stated several times by q_m afaik

[JimMorrison]

It is an awful big list. And I don't think it's very objective..... You state that starting Astral on the Virtue is pointless/redundant? I for one, use the Virtue. I found her useful in vanilla, and only more so in CBM. Remember, the point of this mod isn't to cater to any particular playstyle, but to open up more options.

Also, I used Asynja as a low-cost-disposable-SC for Vanheim, and she performed admirably at the job. I think, better than she would have with Glamor and no armor.

I think you're mostly just being picky, though I like seeing someone close to the subject matter striving for accuracy in Bogarus, for example. <3

[chrispedersen]

Here were some I noted in various places, I don't know if they got fixed:

1. The ermor/pythium multihero has a problem on his attacks.
He references weapons 770++ which are not listed (they are in worthy heros).

Worthy heros has the code, however, they reference secondary effects which are not mentioned in the modders manual, so I have no idea if they work.

Really needs to be fixed as gladiators are pretty pointless otherwise.

2. I also suggest that the golden tusk is probably broken for similar reasons.

3. I have had problem with the Golden Helmets and Golden Scale mail as well.

4. CBM 1.3 lists Axe of hate as Defense 14.
Its actually damage 14, not defense 14.

5. Many people do not play with confusion - but it is devestating in its current incarnation - possibly better than lightning spamming. The number of spell effects 5+ if I recall correctly is simply too high. Bump it up a level either in research or casting requirements (1 air !!!!)

6. Bump umbral back down one level in research. Yes, it is a strong spell. However, Agartha is not a powerhouse contender.

7. Light vs Darkness. Darkness is level 6 - and if someone hasn't researched up the light tree, they can be hosed for a *very very* long time. Make a version of Solar Radiance that doesnt burn eyes or undead - all it does is counter darkness.

8. The Bow of Agonizing death has a shorter range than all other magic bows; it doesn't seem to have been the beneficiary of the bow range update that was otherwise applied across the board.

[Tifone]

What about the Demon Whip being blood only q_m? Like 2B... It would be a weapon mainly for blood nations and it seems quite thematic, a demon that trades his whip for blood slaves
5 F gems only, seems a little cheap and easy... you decide anyway of course

[chrispedersen]

Blood nations do not need a boost. Comparing blood and fire nations, fire is weaker.

I would keep demon whip 1F 1B. The cross path is thematic of demons, and it cuts down on the number of nations building it.
Which I think is important, considering how dropping it down to con-2 is new, and the game implications unclear.

[Aezeal]

lol such small stuff, who cares

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Wrana

This I understand. But still, it isn't logical. And it, for example, removes advantage Bandars have with their Markata scouts, which were not boosted, or Vans scouts. Maybe some boost would be in order, but surely not +20 to all! As for commanders - they shouldn't be so dirt cheap in any case. I can't say whether its' possible to prevent broad usage of independent commanders, nor whether is any point of trying it. Some national commanders bring clear advantages, and there are no independents with Ld 80+, for example...

As far scouts, it's not +20 to all, Illwinter already boosted default stealth to +10. I do agree commanders should not be as cheap or cheaper than comparable troops, and I've made an effort that that should not be the case (even though I suspect a great many national commanders would not get used much at 0 gold). 80+ leadership is fairly immaterial when you can simply spam more indies for the same job.

Originally Posted by Wrana

But in example I brought, satyr sneaks WERE cheaper than satyr infantry in base game! And you specifically mentioned that an idea was to make common human infantry cheaper... %)

I guess I don't understand what you are getting at here... human light infantry are cheaper, so are satyr infantry, so are satyr sneaks. All of them are rarely employed base game.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Do you use javelin version light cavalry much? Do you use peltasts much? In independents light infantry I would agree maybe - but then, they are just a chaff anyway...

It's not the fact they use javelins that makes them so bad, it's the fact they are light cavalry with associated costs. Though I guess it might make sense to give jav cavalry more ammunition. And I do use peltasts in CB.

Originally Posted by Wrana

So, you make paths for her as costly as for a Dragon due to being fond of her?! Girls, beware! Agree that she is a fair choice in basegame, but do not that she should be nerfed in CBM. The only possible reason I already listed - someone was afraid that she should be used with Astral to make and use pearls in crazy amounts. I don't think actual danger is so great and she is weaker than most Titans so I'd think she should retain pathcost 50...

I don't think you can claim she is nerfed, she lost a 125 point cost, that buys a lot of new paths. Plus getting water gems. She is different from other titans and that was the intent.

Originally Posted by Wrana

I can almost swear I've seen it in CBM 1.3 few days ago!

Then I would guess you had worthy heroes enables as well.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Unthematic?? These guys are based on Homer's heroes, for all goodness! And "somewhat cheaper price" made them cost less that normal chariots! :crazy" Of course, I didn't mean making them more powerful than, say, Awakened hero or Knight Commanders, but this should be about their level...

Yes, I agree stats comparable to knight commanders seems a good idea. But I don't think they should get more expensive than 5-10 gold more than a normal chariot.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Well, they are usable, of course. On the other hand, Rakshasi cost the same iirc, while having better stats...

In the end, all CB is aiming for is for as many options as possible to be viable in some situations. Oreiads clearly are viable, and EA Arco is not terribly weak either, so I really don't see the necessity. This is totally apart from the fact I'd find more hp unthematic.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Except it would be very awkward to use them from Pegasus-back, you mean? Yes, it is in base game. And no, I don't like it there, too. By the way, I don't remember offhand, but think there are no other troops with big lances in EA...

Sauromatia for one. Also Oceania, and one of Tir Na Og's commanders. And of course the indies.

Originally Posted by Wrana

It would be helpful - as I pointed out, this will reduce both attack and defence penalties. And having Def 10 instead of 8 will make them quite more survivable against common troops, at least. And it's thematic as far as most Howard-based fantasy goes: there are nobody wielding 2 big axes in Howard's own stories, nor are in classical Conan movies iirc (big axes are mostly used as hand-and-a-half weapons, quite sensibly).

This does seem like a decent idea.

Originally Posted by Wrana

She is more useful? Can't just look in this case now, but generally priests are more costly than commanders... About queen - yes, it's a good reason, actually - but shouldn't she get some spice for it then?

I checked and you are right base game the priestess actually is more costly. So I would not object to reducing the price, but it's a very delicate game, Sauromatia has so many military commanders its easy to leave some with 100% no niche.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Sorry, but ALL Bandar are higher class! And making them less able with weapons than common infantry just looks silly to me.

Even base game bandar have lower base defense than the vanara.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Then why another was needed??

There is one base game, one in CB, no real difference other than cost.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Unless I misunderstand, SS should just trigger second form in this case... Where am I wrong? What I can see are slightly buggy afflictions (especially disease). But a possible alternative would be to make them Size 1 - and this makes them more vulnerable to trample. Another thought was Animalawe - but unfortunately, cavalry isn't considered to be animals (siege penalty it would get would be appropriate - but there are a number of animal-only spells...)

With extra forms, yeah, it might be workable. I'm not sure how it would make them specifically much better against cavalry though.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Is it possible for it to require Blood level, but no slaves? Nothing in mod. manual seems to indicate otherwise.

I don't believe this is possible.

Originally Posted by Wrana

I don't see a sense of Spirit Curse costing a gem - iirc, it just curses 1 enemy, as per Curse which doesn't cost anything...

Quite true, but something exactly similar to curse seems even worse.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Wild Hunt and Erinies look to get too low level - I think that thematically they should appear later in the game..

Ideally I agree, but the effects are not very moddable, and I'm not willing to go lower on gem cost for a global, or path cost thematically, so it's the best of some poor choices.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Summon Fall Bears - Bears themselves are less useful than other seasonal spirits. Maybe they should get some boost (fear/berserk/recuperation/just higher stats)?

If I were to tweak them I'd simply knock some gems off the cost. I'd be interested if there is wide agreement on their relative weakness.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Bane for 4 gems seems too cheap
As does Lamia Queen for 15. Maybe 20?

I still rarely see these, so apparently not.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Great Eagle I see no sense at 7th level even as commander... Lower level?

That's possible... there are so many low level summons to compete with though.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Amphiptere I would prefer to be summoned in some numbers instead of being commander that can't lead anyone...

Seems more like a solitary creature in my own subjective sense of thematicness.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Zmey (Bogarus again ) I would make somewhat more GoRable by giving some random magic picks (maybe look into item slots, too)...

I suppose I could give some fire magic, but I really have a hard time imaging them being GoRed even with some magic and improved slots.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Summon Kappa - I would prefer to have a possibility of getting some troops of these guys. Is it possible to include 2 versions of the spell?

It would be some work, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Celestial Servant - I don't see use in him even at 1 gem apiece. Maybe he should get some non-combat bonus instead (unrest decrease, e.g.)

Not a bad idea, not sure how much difference it would really make though.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Cavern Wight at lvl 1 seems too early...

Considering he is probably still too sucky to bother summoning, I disagree.

Originally Posted by Wrana

As does Telestic Animation at lvl 2. Especially if you consider nations with reanimating priests...

The reanimation issue is quite possible... still better early than cheap, because of that.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Astral Window I think quite useful at cost 2 with no need for reduction (not that it matters much - it would eat additional gems for continuation anyway).

It's not exactly abusable cheaper, so I don't see a real problem.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Both Internal Alchemy and 1000 Year Ginseng are quite useful. I think they shouldn't get quite so cheap.

They might both have rather niche uses at higher costs, but given they are rather unique effects spells, and national, I'd like to see them as useful as possible.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Blindness seems too early at research 2.

It might be... but fire needs some help, and I have not seen it abused yet.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Hidden in Snow/Sand - while look slightly too costly in basegame, seem to get too cheap here. I'd think closer to 60, considering they produce both strong troops, thugs and added magic diversity...

Again, fun spells i have a hard time seeing as abusable, If they truly become the overshadowing use of water/earth gems I may have to reconsider.

Originally Posted by Wrana

While I welcome Legions of Steel at research 1, I always use it anyway, so maybe it's too early here.

Legions of steel tends to get much less useful late in the game, so I'd rather give it it's niche.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Why Frost Fiend is cheaper than Devil? I think it actually slightly better and harder to get at (unless you're Niefelheim).
Storm Demon I'd say is better than both and Demon Knight worse. Do you disagree?

I must admit I have not carefully analyzed between the frost fiend and devil, I just went by Illwinter's original cost levels between the two. It is notable though that there are far more fire/blood mages than water/blood.

I would say demon knight is in most situations better than the storm demons, I was very wary of overcheapening a high prot low enc troop with fear.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Hell Power seems too easy at path level 1. Yes, it's risky, but...

I'd just like to see it used, I would be very surprised if people can dominate the early game with it.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Improved Crossbreeding seems to be cheaper than just Crossbreeding. Why?

This actually a good point, I should probably just up the improved versions number of effects and leave it more expensive.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Why Demon Jester should be commander - and what a sense of it if he can't lead anyone? He surely isn't a good enough thug to summon as such...

The base demon jester is clearly useless, but most boosts are quite unthematic. You don't want swarms of them, and you don't want them excellent in combat.

Instead, they do exactly what jesters should, frustrate opponents by distracting assassins and commander targeting spells. They can also be used for simple tasks like carrying items and gems, building forts, possibly a chassis for spell casting items, etc.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Why make Mound Kings poor leaders? They aren't useful in other qualities (except using Fire Bolas, that is).

This was another attempt to encourage use of national commanders. It doesn't seem to have changed much and I'll probably undo it.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Also, I disagree with nerfing skeletons.
Plus, shields are "rotten" - not "rotted" (don't remember whether this was mentioned already)!

No, it says exactly what it means, they are rotten as shields.

Originally Posted by Wrana

There are several instances (at least, in separate item file) when 1 item appears several times. I don't know how the game handles this, but it can be bug-threatening. Ethereal Crossbow is one, appears as 0 and 4 levels? Demon Whip also.

Thanks for pointing that out, it does need some cleaning up.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Boots of the Behemoth look too good for lvl 0.

I have yet to see one used, base or cb, let alone to good effect.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Bear Claw Talisman appears with mainpath 6 (!). Who needs it then?

Mainpath 6 makes the main path nature.

Originally Posted by Wrana

And Summer Sword gets const. level 0 - I think it at least useful enough for Lesser Items (2).

Another one I have yet to see anyone forge, in any circumstance.

It does seem like there is quite a bit we disagree on, but that's fine. The mod is really for the sake of the community- on almost any aspect of, if you can find enough people that agree with you on a specific change I'm almost certain to implement/unimplement it.