Are devils worth 7 blood each?

[Boron]

That game was a bad example though pickles

You were in a very special , extremely good position diplomacywise . I as arco was at peace with you so i had no interest in dispelling your forge . The only other good astralnation in the game , Ryleh was very peaceful too .


But normally dispelling is not so easy . If you can avoid it you always avoid it normally because you never know how many gems your opponent put into it and so unless verylategame or because you are at war with the one with Forge up it is not so likely to get dispelled .

[Soapyfrog]

Thufir said:
So, we are in agreement, at least at a theoretical level. The problem is that in practice, building in constraints in growth needs to be done at design time. It's not just clams (or even clams +ff's +soul contracts +summoners +...) it's really the way the whole magic system works. In a real sense, anything that has an ongoing effect, without an ongoing cost constitutes a "free lunch" or a perpetual motion machine, of a kind.

Yep we agree on this... and the game is just not really designed with this stuff in mind, it was kind of tacked on as an afterthought.

I disagree that removing it would unbalance the game in the other direction unduly, though... Tien Chi has excellent sacred summons and a dynamic capital only mage, Atlantis and Ryleh are effectively unassailable for the first part of the game, these things are very good even in the absence of clamming.

I would however agree that the BEST thing to do (as upposed to simply excising the items in question) would be to add some additional constraints to these strategies as has been suggested by plenty of very smart people in this thread. Simple things like making them mage-only items and eliminating vampire lord summon allies ability would be welcome changes that might result in a common ground being found between those who think clamming is too strong and those who think its just fine.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

By the time I can have a 50-100 astral/turn income (turn 60-80) I've already effectively won the game (ie: I cannot be stopped), even on a map the size of Orania, and the whole issue of clamhoarding for wishing is thus moot. All wishing does is hasten what will happen anyway. For me that is; YMMV.

You are too optimistic here i think . On a 17 player orania you haven't won already by turn 60-80 . You may have 100 provinces but the map has about 280 provinces .

I think you can't win that quick against 10+ players which are skilled too .
Did you really win once a Mp game on a full house orania on turn 60-80 ? Then congrats .

[Arryn]

Boron, please note the perhaps-too-subtle distinction I made: "won" as defined as "cannot be stopped". There are still many turns to go after such a point before all other players have either been crushed or they've given up. In SP games on Orania I reach that point in the 40s (as the AI is a much weaker adversary), and sometimes as early as the 30s. Just because the map has almost 300 provinces doesn't mean I have to conquer even half of them before I'm certain of a victory. Sometimes all it takes is 10-15% of them. The rest is inevitable.

[Boron]

Soapyfrog said:
I would however agree that the BEST thing to do (as upposed to simply excising the items in question) would be to add some additional constraints to these strategies as has been suggested by plenty of very smart people in this thread. Simple things like making them mage-only items and eliminating vampire lord summon allies ability would be welcome changes that might result in a common ground being found between those who think clamming is too strong and those who think its just fine.

Yeah some imo nice modifications would be :
- Leave clams as they are . But make them stockable only on mages or at least not on scouts which can't be targeted by flames / seeking arrows etc. .
- Remove a few allysummons and give them instead the ability to summon one special unit with a small bonus if that is possible .
A soul contract would give the possessor e.g. 20% discount on summoned devils and a vampire lord would get 40% discount on bloodrite or get +x vampires as a bonus when doing this special ritual .

Vampires and devils are both top 5 troops . Because of the get 1 / turn per allysummoning vampire lord / soul contract they become a bit too cheap and so they are really first choice for all nations who can afford them .
There is really nothing else which is similiar powerful which you can get out so quick and with little effort .

Only a wraithlord is similiar because he has too autosummon . The only other troop you can get in quite big quantities quite cheap is the vine ogre . But a vine ogre is only a living wall while a devil beats almost every other troop and can be dangerous to thugs too .

[Boron]

Arryn said:
Boron, please note the perhaps-too-subtle distinction I made: "won" as defined as "cannot be stopped". There are still many turns to go after such a point before all other players have either been crushed or they've given up. In SP games on Orania I reach that point in the 40s (as the AI is a much weaker adversary), and sometimes as early as the 30s. Just because the map has almost 300 provinces doesn't mean I have to conquer even half of them before I'm certain of a victory. Sometimes all it takes is 10-15% of them. The rest is inevitable.

Sorry but that sounds arrogant . How can you declare you victor in a mp game when you control only 10-15% of orania ? This should quickly lead to an alliance against you and 2-4 allied neighbors should at least weaken you extremely .

You are perhaps the major power in your edge of the world but in the other edge there is probably one who is as strong . So how can you see that you are unstoppable that quick ?
Once you control 40-50% of the map and the other players , especially the 2nd and 3rd biggest have given up you have won but not with only 10-20% of the map .

[Soapyfrog]

I think she was saying thats the case in SP...

[Cohen]

Clams should be given to a mage that has to research!!!
Otherwise someone could have less costy mages that could hide (see Man Bards, or Ryleh Starchild).

[Graeme Dice]

Soapyfrog said:
This is not good game mechanics, period. If the solution to a Mictlan devil factory is "gang up on Mictlan early" then that's broken. If the solution to runaway economies is to play on small maps, then that's broken. The game doesnt scale!

Another solution is Lamias, storm, and iron dragons. You shouldn't take too many, if any losses that way.

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
It'd be good if they didn't work on undead (was that patched yet?),

This wouldn't be good. This would have no more effect than making people right-click through 50 scouts a turn to check their hitpoints. As it is now, they cost more resources when you can spend 3 death gems to put them on a mound king.