WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???

[Chazar]

I am wondering about the mechanics of these spells: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt.

The settting: In an ongoing MP-game I am troubled by sneaking armies (mainly not-so-immortal-anymore vampires), which play hide&seek in my righteously newly acquired provinces. I chase them around but achieve nothing save instigating my own popluation.
Ok, I want to play the game for myself, so I dont want other hints how to deal with those hideous thugs, but I wonder why the methods employed failed so far:

-WindRide: In its description it says that EarthMages and big creatures are likely to be impossible to lift, yet VampireLords are size 2 and have no knowledge in earth magic, but still wont get wind-ridden after they have revealed themselves by attacking. Why? I think my spells should come first before they are able to hide and sneak away again? Right or wrong?

Searching the forum, I have found someone mentioning that Etherealness is also good for stopping WindRide? Why? Or how could I know this, save from the flavour of Etherealness? Are they immune or is it just unlikely? (I tried 8 times so far. This cost more than its worth!) Do those Magic Penetration Amulets that I already use affect the chances for these ritual-spells at all?
Also, what are the rough chances for WindRide with respect to Size and EarthMagic? (e.g. is it already almost hopeless to target size 4 creatures?, etc.)

-CloudTrapeze: CloudTrapezing onto the sneaking thugs, just after they unhid themselves by attacking, didnt work either, for the thugs were ordered to retreat. What I wonder though is what happens to those retreating thugs orders? They retreat during the magic-phase, so would they carry out their orders after the retreat if they can? Are they even capable of still moving, provided that their former destination is still within reach?
(Btw, just for completemess anout these spells: I was also reminded that CloudTrapezing is good to reinforce besieged forces, but bad for attacking siegers... )

-MindHunt: Are mindless creatures immune to MindHunt? Or is the only defense an astral mage?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Chazar said:
-WindRide: [...]I think my spells should come first before they are able to hide and sneak away again? Right or wrong?

Depends on the spell. IIRC Wind Ride works on sneakers (I may be wrong), while some other rituals (eg, Seeking Arrow) don't.

I have found someone mentioning that Etherealness is also good for stopping WindRide? Why?

Try WR-ing one of your own ethereal commanders, the reason why is fully explained in the message you'll get - something along the lines "the attempt was unsuccesful because the whirlwind couldn't get any hold on the incorporeal commander".

Are they immune or is it just unlikely?

Immune.

Do those Magic Penetration Amulets that I already use affect the chances for these ritual-spells at all?

No effect on Wind Ride (this isn't a 'resistable' spell - one of those that reads 'magic resistance negates').

Also, what are the rough chances for WindRide with respect to Size and EarthMagic? (e.g. is it already almost hopeless to target size 4 creatures?, etc.)

Earth @4 should make you immune.

Not sure about size - for some time I believed size 6 was required to get WR immunity, but now I think it's more dependent on HPs than size, or it has changed since the time I tested it. Eg, I remember WR-ing size 4 Jotun Herses (that was in Dom 1), but the size 4 hero Bogus is unaffected by the spell.

-CloudTrapeze: CloudTrapezing onto the sneaking thugs, just after they unhid themselves by attacking, didnt work either, for the thugs were ordered to retreat. What I wonder though is what happens to those retreating thugs orders? They retreat during the magic-phase,

By 'retreat', I assume you mean they sneaked away to an adjacent province? If so, your Last statement is wrong: they 'retreat' (move) during the normal phase. They were still here when you Trapezed in, only you didn't see them.

so would they carry out their orders after the retreat if they can?

Which orders? When you order a stealthy commander to 'sneak', he will hardly do anything but 'hide' on arrival.

Are they even capable of still moving, provided that their former destination is still within reach?

Sure they can.

-MindHunt: Are mindless creatures immune to MindHunt?

Yes. Or at least, they should be.

Or is the only defense an astral mage?

Or high MR. Or Domes.

[Chazar]

Nagot Gick Fel said:
Try WR-ing one of your own ethereal commanders, the reason why is fully explained in the message you'll get - something along the lines "the attempt was unsuccesful because the whirlwind couldn't get any hold on the incorporeal commander".

Great!!! That means I just wasted all those precious Air Gems for nothing! When casting it on enemy commanders, I just got the report saying: "XYZ has cast wind ride." Nothing more... And why should I ever try it on my own if I can cloud trapeze anyway...

By 'retreat', I assume you mean they sneaked away to an adjacent province? If so, your Last statement is wrong: they 'retreat' (move) during the normal phase. They were still here when you Trapezed in, only you didn't see them.

No! I meant retreat from the battle that occurred due to CloudTrapezing onto the thugs: The CloudTrapeze triggered a Battle, but my opponent might have forseen something like that, thus his armies where ordered to retreat via tactical army setup orders (which he can do, since its the turn after the attack of the previously hidden sneaking thugs).

Thus the battle occurs before the thugs could carry out their own ordinary strategical non-battle orders (provided that they are not casting a spell themselves), but they moved thereby to an adjacent province before the normal movement phase. So what can they do in the normal phase after that combat?

Example: Hideous Hillary is unhidden in province X, ordered to sneak to province Y. Now magically mighty Mike CloudTrapezes onto Hillary in province X and a battle happens at X, but Hillary retreats from the battle to province Z (by any reason, maybe rout). So we know that Z must belong to Hillary's employer. If Y=Z will she be hidden or be visible; and if not, will she still sneak to Y if Z is adjacent to Y? I assume that Hillary will sit unhidden in Z defending it, but I am not sure and this game is obviously full of surprise!

---

Anyway, thanks for your quite helpful insights so far!

[archaeolept]

No! I meant retreat from the battle that occurred due to CloudTrapezing onto the thugs: The CloudTrapeze triggered a Battle, but my opponent might have forseen something like that, thus his armies where ordered to retreat via tactical army setup orders

heh lol. well, your oppponent just needlessly lost his troops (unless he actually had someplace to retreat to) when instead he could just have set his troops to sneak or hide, which would have immediately made them hidden to your cloud trapezing units.

[Chazar]

archaeolept said:
heh lol. well, your oppponent just needlessly lost his troops (unless he actually had someplace to retreat to) when instead he could just have set his troops to sneak or hide, which would have immediately made them hidden to your cloud trapezing units.

No, they had a place to retreat and are still wreaking havoc upon me...

BUT you say that stealth troops cannot be nailed down by cloud trapeze, for they hide even before cloud trapezers may arrive? So this is also an unusable option to catch stealthy skirmishers?

[archaeolept]

yup. stealth is a real pain.

[Gandalf Parker]

The trick is to try and catch them in the same turn as their attack. If there are 4 possible provinces he might attack next to the one he just took, then try to attack all 4 at once.

Build an independent force in the area and have it move to one of them.
Trapeze to another
Do something like Ghost Riders or Call of the Wind or Call of the Wild to others.
Especially, the provinces he just took from you.

Yes some of those are pretty weak. But all you need is to own it when his unit tries to retreat.

[Chazar]

I wrote that I do not want to discuss strategies since its an ongoing MP-Game, and discussing strategies is thus cheating. All I want is to know the technical details about sneaking and spell-casting to save myself the simple but time consuming task of testing...

Nevertheless:

Gandalf Parker said:
If there are 4 possible provinces he might attack next...

If it would only ever be just four provinces! Vampires tend to fly, which gives them incredible reach, and even if I would guess right it would avail nothing, for the forces must wait a turn before they can start patrolling to catch the vampire lads which sneak on every other turn. This is like playing that old ScotlandYard-Boardgame: Sometimes they pop up somewhere, you now that they took the plane meanwhile for travelling but declined all free WindRides... ...Vampires are a nightmare, and the best defence I can think of right now is...(sorry, my enemy is listening )

But another technical question: Is a pretender god still alive if he only has his dominion and some hidden stealth units including himself (or herself in the case of that bloody vampire *****)? Or will she vanish just because of having not a single province for just a single turn?

[Graeme Dice]

Chazar said:
I wrote that I do not want to discuss strategies since its an ongoing MP-Game, and discussing strategies is thus cheating.

How is it cheating to discuss strategies for an ongoing game?

[johan osterman]

Nagot Gick Fel said:
...
Earth @4 should make you immune.

Not sure about size - for some time I believed size 6 was required to get WR immunity, but now I think it's more dependent on HPs than size, or it has changed since the time I tested it. Eg, I remember WR-ing size 4 Jotun Herses (that was in Dom 1), but the size 4 hero Bogus is unaffected by the spell.

...

IIRC there is a decreasing likelyhood to get windrode from size 4 to 6, where you are immune at size 6.