A question about magic

[onomastikon]

I think I have grasped how the magic system functions (paths and schools), and I am wondering what I have missed. I obviously am missing something.

I just don't see it really being "worth it" to invest in most magic and magic research. It seems when I make a pretender with high magic skills, s/he spends most of the time researching, rarely getting to use them. And I find "in battle" most of the things they finally do cast to be not worth the effort. Just reading the manual, I see that there are really high-level summoning spells that give me longdead horsemen with a horse champion -- these I get every turn by just waiting around doing nothing when playing Ermor Ashen Vale.

Trying simply to experiment, I made a few pretenders more melee-oriented, with limited magic skills. I find my game going much faster, and I really dont miss the magic. I still get a few caster types, but I notice even when I research a lot, with the exception of "summoning" spells they still just cast the basic "flying shards" type spells.

Is it worth it to have someone who can cast flying shards over a few crossbowmen for the same price? Mages are usually expensive commanders, and they have to spend lots of time researching or searching; for less money I can get warriors. I was therefore wondering: what am I missing?

I suppose I still don't see which "strategy" in researching I should undertake. Often I think: oh those spells look good, only to see that *maybe* my Pretender could cast them sometime around turn 40, but my normal mages never will (because they only have skills of 1-3 in any path). With the exception of Ermor, I also find that many of their path skills dont mix well. Taking T'ien as an example, I just don't see which schools I should "go for", since I find the mages to be generally kind of weak. It seems I can research a school which is good for my pretender *OR* get my lowly mages a few spells. Any tips here on how to develop a better research strategy paired with the pretender design? I have tried both making a pretender which has those paths described in the race (e.g. fire and earth for Ulm, astral air water nature for T'ien) as well as making what someone called a "rainbow mage" pretender, but have had most success in pretty much going low on the magic and high on the troops / combat-oriented Pretender (such as a trampling Great Mother).

So I suppose this was many questions about magic. Sorry if it was a bit confused. Thanks in advance for reading and replying.

Ug.

The Magic system and spells are part of the 'depth' of the game that takes time and playing to really understand. The same with making Pretenders and finding the balance between magic (and blessings) and scales (production of units).

Spells and mages can turn the tide of battle quicker than any other aspect of the game.

This is where playing a nation like Ulm is good when you are a newbie so you don't have to worry about all the different spells and effects and can focus more on learning the basics.

The best way to start appreciating some of the magic is playing a race with strong, but not to many different paths/spells to pick from. Good ones are: Ulm (Earth with a little Fire), Man (Nature with some Air), Atlantis (Water with a little Astral).

I'm sorry I can't help you more, but I'm glad that it is far too complex for me to answer effectively since its what makes the game so deep.

[Arralen]

You could forge magic items (needs construction, though) from magic gems.

Those magic items can give extra levels to the mages using them.

It's possible to "empower" the mages with gems from the path (+1 skill in that path permanently)

Scipt your mages to cast the wanted spells in combat. (issue orders from the army screen - see page 13 and 20 IIRC)

A.

PS: TienChi is one of the nation hardest to play, the mages tend not only to have low skills but very individual path combinations from the random pics. Not recommended for beginners.

PPS: There are 4 types of "magic pretenders": The bless-effect leader (look up "bless effects" in the manual), the play-nations-strength-leader which uses the same skills as the nations mages, but with higher level (to get all the sites that produce the associated gems and enable the high-level-spells early), the complementary leader (with those paths the nations mages don't have) and the rainbow mage (with 2..3 in every path to get all those magic sites found; in fact there are some which require lvl 4 but it's only a few.)

[ January 15, 2004, 13:27: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[aldin]

Originally posted by onomastikon:
I obviously am missing something.

Nice to know I'm not the only one with this struggle. Having started with Ulm, my idea of strong magic was crafting unique items and casting Flame Bolts. I'm slowly learning which paths of magic I like and which effects I want to be able to make. One of the hardest adjustments for me to make when I decided to really use battlefield magic was to give gems to my commanders. A lot of the better battlefield spells require gems in addition to fatigue. So, quick comments on what I've figured out:

1) Construction is almost always a good default school - items are just plain useful.
2) Conjuration is another good default school with a mix of Ritual and Battlefield spells.
3) Thaumaturgy has several of the 'site-search' spells at a low level of research.
4) Evocation can turn almost any sphere into a damage-dealer.

That's my experience so far anyway...

~Aldin

[Taqwus]

They're all good . Well, not necessarily equally so depending on circumstances... blood magic may be tricky if you can't sacrifice the gold income, or you're the Ashen Empire and can't find people left to sacrifice...
Quickness comes from Alteration, Blood is a very fine summoning school (and Astral Corruption will be welcomed with open arms by your fellow players), Enchantment provides a lot of globals as well as the most feasible way to get rid of them... etc.
Real nastiness can result from combinations. For instance, Wind Guide + Flaming Arrows, for instance. Curse of Stones + Relief. Quickness + Communion + Orb Lightning...

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by onomastikon:
I think I have grasped how the magic system functions (paths and schools), and I am wondering what I have missed. I obviously am missing something.

I just don't see it really being "worth it" to invest in most magic and magic research. It seems when I make a pretender with high magic skills, s/he spends most of the time researching, rarely getting to use them. And I find "in battle" most of the things they finally do cast to be not worth the effort.

This might be completely true. The neat thing about this game is that someone else might say the same thing but totally reversed. For some it might be all magic and why bother with a combat pretender. For someone else it might be all scales and why bother with any pretender at all. Its good that you asked because anything that seems useless you should definetly double-check. Same for anything that seems an automatic choice.

As far as Dominions goes, if its true for you then go with it. Its your best answer. Dont expect any general agreement on it. Dont be caught off guard if in a multiplayer game someone else is able to make just as good a use of the reverse situation. I love this game.

[ January 15, 2004, 20:10: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[General Tacticus]

I used to shrug off magic as "something I can do without".

Then I got hit by Burden of Time, Wrath of God, Seeking Arrows, Flame Bolts, And I watched my commanders - and even my Pretenders - die. The turning point was when I equipped my Pretender with an amulet of missile protection, then had a nice message a few turns later, saying it had saved him from another Seeking Arrow.

This convinced me that ritual magic and items forging were very important.

And when I lost a uber-stack super-heavy Ulm army to a light, but mage-heavy, AI army, was when I realized battlefields magic had their place. That, and trying to kill off Ermor. I will long remember that battle where 25 priests, protected by 50 heavy infantry, squared off against 30 soulless, with 5 undead commanders (the kind that summons skeletons) who predictably summoned 25 skeletons each turn. I got wiped out, despite killing literally hundreds of undeads. I mean, all was going very well, until my heavy infantry had enough and quit. There I learned that the right spell (in this case summon skeleton) can make a big difference.

I see magic as something that happens later in the game. After turn 20 you start noticing it. After turn 40 it's really annoying unless you are ready with magic to counter it. And you don't want to be the only one without the ability to cast level 9 spells !

P.S. There are many ways to allow mages to cast bigger spells in battle : communions, magic items, empowerment, spells that boost mage power...
P.P.S If you are not convinced : choose a race that can make lvl 4 priests. Make one your prophet. Then watch him smite his way to the top of the Hall of Fame, reducing whole armies to ashes. Then realize you can do the same with "regular" magic, and a bit of work.

[OG_Gleep]

I find myself thinking the same thing, especially playing as Ulm (was just dumbluck I picked the nation most suited to my playstyle). I was using magic as a means to find sites, to get gems, to make items. Battlefield magic has escaped me.

Can someone who is familliar with the magic system, post some of their favorite BF spell combos, along with any details such as Nation, Magic req etc, Gem Req combos, and No Gem Req combos, and also any dramatic results that you experienced so we know what to look for.

This would help me and other magic noobs start to wade into the system. Myself especially. 99% of the fantasy games I play, be it Baldurs Gate, Diablo 2, DAoC, or AoW, I stick to warrior types. It is always a challenge for me to work with any magic system....let alone one this complex.

[Taqwus]

With Black Forest Ulm, it would make sense to take a strong dominion and crank out vampires quickly. Vampires -- regular, Count, Lord and Queen -- are all immortal, flying, ethereal undead. The immortality + flying is a nice duo for early expansion because when your vampire count/queen/etc dies in your dominion, he'll reappear at home and be able to fly back to the front rather quickly -- and being immortal will heal afflictions over time even without Gift of Health or other magical assistance. Plus, immortals in their own dominion don't rout, which helps them keep fighting against suicidal odds...
With death gems + immortal death-2/blood-2 commanders, Lammashastas should be readily exploited. Can't recall how much research that takes 'tho. Yes, the lammashastas will quite probably kill your vampire count... but in your dominion, it won't matter; and if the lammashastas rout/kill the enemy as well, you get the province.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:
Can someone who is familliar with the magic system, post some of their favorite BF spell combos, along with any details such as Nation, Magic req etc, Gem Req combos, and No Gem Req combos, and also any dramatic results that you experienced so we know what to look for.

Ulm: I research enough construction to forge Earth Boots (level 4). Then I build Earth Boots, giving me level-3 Earth, and forge a Dwarven Hammer (forge bonus). Then I mass produce boots for the smiths.

What next? ...=) Blade Wind, of course. Research evocation for Blade Wind, and have a couple Smiths with Boots accompany your armies... one such mage can annihilate an entire enemy army, especially if he is empowered in Earth to level 3 (effective level 4). Expecially good against hordes of undead. Blade Wind rarely hurts Ulmish troops. A single Blade Wind Smith is easily worth 100 archers... and that's BEFORE he gets Heroic Quickness / Endurance / Precision. And he will become heroic.

Some good battlefield spells:

Weak/Cheap/Early:

Paralyze
Blindness
Swarm
Summon Imps
Raise Dead
Holy Pyre (area 3 armor-piercing, long range)
Aim / Eagle Eyes (for mages, before damage spells)
Lightning
Fire Darts

Later/Stronger/Higher level:

Mass Protection
Legions of Steel
Wind Guide
Flaming Arrows
Relief
Terror

A lot of those can mean the difference between losing and winning with no casualties. And they're all fairly low level.

[ January 16, 2004, 22:39: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]