Legionaries

[vanedor]

My favorite race to play with is Pythium. They seem to fit my playing style and philosophy best.

As for my main units, I got this choice :

Velite 10G, 09R
Alae Legionnaire 10G, 18R
Hastatus 12G, 19R
Principe 15G, 19R
Triarius 14G, 28R

Velite seem too expensive to make proper cannon fodders. And barely faster than the standard legionaries, they are not fast enough to make good flankers.

Alae, Hastatus and Principe are very close to each others in term of strenght. But it seems to me that the Hastatus and Alae price is so close to the one of the Principe that I fail to see their utility.

Triarius are slow and heavily armored soldiers. They are closer to the arco hoplites than to the other legionaries. I guess they could make good commander bodyguards but for this task, I prefer emerald guards.

So my typical pythium army consist mainly of principe. I wish there could be a use for all units. What about making it so that pythium can recruit alea legionaries in conquered cities only. It would make sense as, by their background, they are recruted from the empire allies...

Since the Velites don't wear mediuim-heavy armor like the other legionaries, they could aim slightly better.

For the Hastatus... I don't know. They are suppose to be the core of the army while the principe are, with the Triarius, the elite. Any suggestion to make them worthwhile? Perhaps the gold cost could be lowered?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by vanedor:
Velite seem too expensive to make proper cannon fodders.

They have tower shields. That makes them excellent arrow catchers.

Since the Velites don't wear mediuim-heavy armor like the other legionaries, they could aim slightly better.

Why would armour affect a person's aim?

[vanedor]

Armor is cumbersome. Make it more difficult to manipulate weapons.

Just a suggestion.

"That makes them excellent arrow catchers."

Right, but as Pythium, about all my units are excellent arrow catcher. IMO, they are not cheap enough to be fodder and too frail in close combat to be core troops. A better slightly better precision could make them great flanker.

But of course, I'm just rambling and I'm still fairly newbieish.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by vanedor:
Armor is cumbersome. Make it more difficult to manipulate weapons.

If armor actually made it more difficult to wield weapons, you might have an argument there. Since it's possible to do cartwheels in plate armour, I don't think that you do.

"That makes them excellent arrow catchers."

Right, but as Pythium, about all my units are excellent arrow catcher. IMO, they are not cheap enough to be fodder and too frail in close combat to be core troops. A better slightly better precision could make them great flanker.

They are only 10 gold. The only nations that get troops for less than 10 gold are R'Lyeh (mindless cannon fodder slaves), and Mictlan, who's troops can in no way compete with Pythium's 1 on 1. 10 gold is the base cost for a human unit with standard training.

But of course, I'm just rambling and I'm still fairly newbieish. [/QB][/quote]

Originally posted by vanedor:

Velite seem too expensive to make proper cannon fodders. And barely faster than the standard legionaries, they are not fast enough to make good flankers.

They are not really "Cannon Fodder" per say. They are more of the 'plentiful' legionnaire. If you have access to masses of Militia and others you should use them, but if you want alot of Javelin/Tower Shield units fast and on a budget pick these. They don't have to be Arrow Fodder to be fodder they can be spell catchers, lance catchers, and any other use for inexpensive units that can withstand a arrow storm.

Alae, Hastatus and Principe are very close to each others in term of strenght. But it seems to me that the Hastatus and Alae price is so close to the one of the Principe that I fail to see their utility.

The main difference between these 3 is the Morale (10, 11, 12) and Defense (13, 14, 15). Morale comes into affect for alot of things. Even a 1 point difference can make a difference as well as defense. Not to mention the Alae uses a spear, which repels much easier than a Shortsword.

Triarius are slow and heavily armored soldiers. They are closer to the arco hoplites than to the other legionaries. I guess they could make good commander bodyguards but for this task, I prefer emerald guards.

Triarius are slow, which is annoying, but they form a good center for any Pythium army. A Long Spear and a Tower Shield along with 13 Morale to make their repels more effective.

For the Hastatus... I don't know. They are suppose to be the core of the army while the principe are, with the Triarius, the elite. Any suggestion to make them worthwhile? Perhaps the gold cost could be lowered?

Hastatus is 3 gold cheaper than each Principe. Mid to Late in the game it's not uncommon to recruit 10-12 units a turn in a (or each) castle (if they have the resources). So the extra gold can be significant. Depends on what you are going to use them for and if you need the gold for theurgs.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by vanedor:
Armor is cumbersome. Make it more difficult to manipulate weapons.

Just a suggestion.

"That makes them excellent arrow catchers."

Right, but as Pythium, about all my units are excellent arrow catcher. IMO, they are not cheap enough to be fodder and too frail in close combat to be core troops. A better slightly better precision could make them great flanker.

But of course, I'm just rambling and I'm still fairly newbieish.

the recurring problem, that IW dont (or dont want to) perceive, is that light troops have generally the same gold cost that heavier troops, which is unbalanced whatever the resource cost. For your example Velite cost 10, as Alae. One can say that they can be produced faster, but its seldom (although it happens) a determining priority. The problem is even more accute in dom2 compared to dom1, because gold being 50% more scarce is even more a valuable resource.
This is why 90% of the players armies are made of the heavier kind of unit, and this is a fact. So perhaps this reality can hint to the devs that the cost are no more balanced, as they could have been in dom1 (which was not even true, as I never saw a single recruited velite, cardace, or other light troop recruited by an *experienced* player (one which can access somehow correctly play balance ) in all the pbem I played).

Modding is a good thing, but the official IW Version will always have prevalence, so this issue must be corrected by the devs, and not by fans.

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by vanedor:
Armor is cumbersome. Make it more difficult to manipulate weapons.

Just a suggestion.

"That makes them excellent arrow catchers."

Right, but as Pythium, about all my units are excellent arrow catcher. IMO, they are not cheap enough to be fodder and too frail in close combat to be core troops. A better slightly better precision could make them great flanker.

But of course, I'm just rambling and I'm still fairly newbieish.

I think their precision is enough. As javelin throwers, they'll be close to their targets anyway, and the javelins should easily hit any decent-sized squad. Plus, javelin damage is not bad. Depending on the map and your scales, gold may or may not be a problem, though, but very few nations get troops that cost less than 10 gold, and you should see how weak THOSE are. Hey, Pythium has one of the best bargain, with gladiators, have you tried them ?

I think gladiators are Pythium's best arrow catchers and shock absorbers, the challenge being to put just enough of them (you don't want leftovers after the battle ), and to make sure you get a fresh supply after each battle... They are not very useful for initial expansion, except for very tough targets, but they'll win you any war of attrition you might find yourself in...

[vanedor]

Yeah, I tried the gladiator. I tend to keep them as fire fighters, going where there is an emergency. Or fight that decisive battle by opening the way for my regular troops. I guess I could start using them for my regular assaults but as you said, getting a fresh supplies of gladiator can be very difficult if I'm deep into enemy territory and easily wasted by attacking overly inferior armies.

[Pillin]

[quote]Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
[QB]

Originally posted by vanedor:
Armor is cumbersome. Make it more difficult to manipulate weapons.

If armor actually made it more difficult to wield weapons, you might have an argument there. Since it's possible to do cartwheels in plate armour, I don't think that you do.

Cartwheels in plate? what are you smoking and can I have some?

[IKerensky]

[quote]Originally posted by Pillin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
[QB]

Originally posted by vanedor:
Armor is cumbersome. Make it more difficult to manipulate weapons.

If armor actually made it more difficult to wield weapons, you might have an argument there. Since it's possible to do cartwheels in plate armour, I don't think that you do.

Cartwheels in plate? what are you smoking and can I have some?

---

yes you can cart whell is ARTICULATED plate mail... and chain mail too...

Here we are talking of roman legion armor, and throwing pilum was an inherent part of the battle tactics of every legionnaires.

If you find it hard not to field army of princips that is logical, principes are the Last evolution in legionnaires and where the only kind fielded in thoses times ( perhaps some auxiliaries velites still, but with sling or bow I guess ). The 4 other kind were earlier Version that where supposed to fight by ranks... a tactics you can try in the game ....

BTW you can adjust the pilum of principles so he is supposed to be low damage ( against shielded troups ), low range but destroy ( render useless ) the ennemy shield ( something I saw other magical weapon do ). This could be a nice, realistic change.

[ February 03, 2004, 17:56: Message edited by: IKerensky ]