Surrender, Routing, and Pacificm

[tinkthank]

I know I am a weird person, and I know that I have purchased a "wargame", but....

Would anybody besides myself like to see (perhaps for Dominions III??) more non-violent and /or ethically responsible motives in this most excellent of games? (I hear the virtual choruses of "no!!!" ringing in my ears, but persist nevertheless for the remainder of this post)

I am thinking of something along the lines of:
- Routing enemies could raise little white flags if not mindless and/or undead
- Routing white-flag raising enemies could then be captured by your army and taken as PoWs (Prisoner of War). Being captured means: added to your PoW pool after the battle is over, it wouldnt have to be made graphically explicit. (Note: you wouldnt HAVE to do this if you were "evil" or whatever, you could change your settings at the beginning of the game (at any time?)). Capturing and keeping PoWs cost you Supply but no upkeep.
- You should probably get some form of intra-game incentive for doing so besides pure ethical motives, perhaps even a factor in game-winning (e.g. "standard victory" = "blah blah + XXX PoWs, or "victory by PoW"). Perhaps you get some extra resources when you strip down their armor and melt it or whatever.
- Or you dont get any incentive: You get + XX points in the "dominion Scales setting" screen for choosing the "select special dominion": "Geneva Convention" (haha); taking PoWs costs you small amounts of supply but you get additional scales bonuses but no other in-game advantages.
- Or: White flag-raising guys are stripped of any/all magical items, which are transported to the victor's lab, and are just simply removed from the game without being slaughtered.
- flag-raising guys are not the target of intentional fire
- A new nation which relies very heavily on Sleep and Enslave Minds, plus Charm, Persuasion, ConVersion (all new spells), has lots of priests and spies and big, heavy, defensive-oriented units which are good at capturing others, etc. etc.

Well just a few thoughts.
(Note: personal ramble follows, ignore if you dont like such stuff.) Besides my own humble views on ethics and morals (which obviously are somehow in conflict with my desire to play wargames and other forms of games involving the virtual harming of others), I would sort of like my wife to have at least slightly less abhorrance to my addiciton to such games, and I would also like to have slightly less feelings of guilt when my children get old enough to play computer games and I get torn in two between wanting to be a didactically upright moralist and a didactically inconsistant hypocrite.

[Wauthan]

An award for being peaceful and kind is absent from most games I ever played, apart from Planescape: Torment perhaps but then again that was something very different indeed.

A Dominions 2 take on "fighting the good war" then?

Bonuses for being a force of good:

Well being known for taking prisoners and treating them well could lessen the morale of an attacking army. No point in dying for your gods cause when you know that your enemies will stop smacking you around as soon as you drop your weapon.

When the good nation is attacking this morale penalty still rings true. If you know that your enemies will not hurt you or even treat you badly then there's no point at all in fighting to the death against a superoir foe.

Since people usually favor a peaceful and kind god over a vengeful and violent dominion should increase faster for the good guy.

Knowing that you're on the side of a fair and just ruler should make you a really determined defender when the neighbouring God from Hell starts massing your way. Giving up means you'll die anyway and propably a lot worse than the one found on the battlefield.

On a similar account a benelovent pretender should have population increase over time as refugees start appearing at the doors of its temples.

Your casters have a long tradition and skill of using good aligned spells (healing, antiundead, summoning angels etc). They take less fatigue for using such spells and they are cheaper in gem cost.

Penalties for walking the narrow path:

When you're the good guy you can't go around blowing people up in horrid ways. No direct damage spells allowed, save the those specifically focused on fighting the undead. On the plus side there's no "friendly fire" from your mages this way.

No blood magic allowed, nor can you make use of blood magic sites.

Death magic is allowed but only the antiundead and utility spells are available. Undead can not be summoned or created. You respect the law of death and don't force your divine will on the spirits of the dead.

Taking prisoners and treating them well takes a lot of gold and supplies. Basicly you are paying for and army you don't use. Prisoners of war could either be converted to your cause (dominion strength versus magic resistance of unit + enemy dominion strength, doubled for sacred units) or sent back to its home province (for a fee of three times its upkeep cost, six times if its a sacred unit). Note that undead and bloodsummons are not taking prisoners but laid to rest or banished back to hell.

Unrest can not be patrolled away since that means you are executing those discontent with your rule. It can only be lowered by lowering taxes.

As refugees start appearing in numbers they disrupt the normal ways of a province since they need food, work and shelter. This is reflected by a rising unrest level. This means you don't automaticly gain more gold as a good guy but have to take a long term view of your economy.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Brainstorm away.

[Karacan]

I am afraid I have to disagree with the basic concept of the "good" nation.

Every nation proclaiming itself as "good" while on a war of religion actually turned out to be quite the opposite, especially once someone mentioned doing it in the name of that Being we usually refer to as a benevolent, wise and just God.

This goes through the whole history of mankind... the egyptians certainly considered them "good" while happily enslaving and sacrificing the lesser tribes.
The spaniards in America, claiming to bring the word of God to the heathens while slaughtering them for their gold and burning their books.
"Torquemada's Dream" comes to mind, too... burning those different and purging the land from them - all the while the "people" cheered loudly during hangings and burnings. Entertainment had been sparse, and there's nothing like a good mob cheering the headsman on to produce a little bit more blood.
Nazi-Germany, they certainly considered themselves saviours of mankind, and most of the people (those not belonging to any prosecuted minority and those without (unusual for that time) high ethical standards) cheered them on, content in the knowledge that no matter how cruel and dark their masters' ways, it wouldn't affect them for now.
And, to add a bit of controversy, America, in all its self-righteous glory bringing the "good" to Vietnam and the (unspecified for the sake of flames) East.

I am afraid that the Geneva Convention is something blissfully unnatural to Human Nature, and a lot of things had to happen to get that one true.


So much for me showing off historical and philosophical background...

Anyway, I disagree with PoWs being treated well and costing supplies, in a time where the "powers" didn't even treat their own subjects that well. I am all for fanatical, Last-man-standing, death to all heathens war. As long as it remains a game, of course.

[Wauthan]

Ah well I was sort of thinking along the lines of the fantasy setting Version of "good".

It's all too true that the definition of good guys all to often is the same as "what the victorious named themselves". But Dominions 2 does of course not take place in a historical setting. The gods are literally walking the earth and raw magic seeps into the mortal world in the shape of oddly coloured gemstones.

Doing anything in the name of god gets a whole lot more problematic when the diety is around to tell you what he thinks about your interpretation of its words. And just think about the presence of angels, devils, the spirits of the dead and the whole cadre of mythical creatures. Doing "good deeds" might simply mean "do what angels do". If no angels are around you can always pop down to the local necromancer. Ask your favorite ancestor about the afterlife and what you should do to get into the less miserable parts of it.

So while your argument is completely valid Karacan it sort of gets stretched a lot in the imaginary setting of Dominions 2. What I'm after is simply a system that rewards me for using a very different style of strategy than usual. It simply makes for a different story than the "I killed everyone and now I am allpowerful". If you happened to play the game "Black & White" you know what I mean. It sort of a wish to be able to be the hero of the story rather than the most successful shade of grey.

[Karacan]

Yeah, I know we're arguing about a game - which always gets problematic when someone starts throwing around arguments based on real history.

Yes, I played Black & White, and I always managed to be sort of white-ish... until I got fed up and started hurling fireballs towards enemy villages

However, I like consistency and realism in the system presented. Dominions plays in a world where wanna-be gods walk the earth and lead armies to conquer the unbelievers... however, most of the armies consist of human(oid) beings, and when I think of humans, I have this certain (dark, cynic) image in mind, especially when it comes to Holy War.

Anyway, I probably just argue for the sake of argument (it's fun, isn't it ), for generally, I am very much in favour for being able to do things differently. On the other hand, I think that Dom supplies already enough of those methods. Want a peaceful solution? Preach the heretics out of existence. Indoctrinate enemy provinces. Master Enslave the opposing army (okay, I admit I never managed to pull that off).

Do you really think that adding another level of management (those PoWs) adds to the game, feeling-wise and mechanic-wise? I argued about the feeling of the game for now, I think, I am sure someone else can do so for the mechanics and balance.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by tinkthank:

(Note: personal ramble follows, ignore if you dont like such stuff.) Besides my own humble views on ethics and morals (which obviously are somehow in conflict with my desire to play wargames and other forms of games involving the virtual harming of others), I would sort of like my wife to have at least slightly less abhorrance to my addiciton to such games, and I would also like to have slightly less feelings of guilt when my children get old enough to play computer games and I get torn in two between wanting to be a didactically upright moralist and a didactically inconsistant hypocrite.

Real easy solution to that.

GAME is HERE.


------------------REALITY----------------------


REAL LIFE is HERE.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Zurai:
Real easy solution to that.

GAME is HERE.


------------------REALITY----------------------


REAL LIFE is HERE.

I couldn't agree more. I am (in real life) a committed Catholic, with a family of my own; my wife and I teach very strict morals around the house, and we try our hardest to live up to those same standards - but I have no problem with this game.

Why? It isn't real. It doesn't even try to approximate anything that's real. Certain games aren't good for younger kids to see/participate in, and you might decide that Dom II is one of those. It's okay. Some things are simply made for more mature adults, with a better grasp on the difference between fantasy and reality.

My two cents.

[ March 08, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

[tinkthank]

Hey thanks for these replies so far.

Wauthan, I liked your ideas very much. Those are some good in-game variables which could be implemented. I think, anyhow, that this could add to the game very much. I'd like to see some of those in the future. (Probably very far in the future....!)
Note that my initial idea was to be *able* to use variables such as these, not *have to* do so.
Also note that my original idea didnt necessarily want to employ any (tangible) in-game bonuses for being "good" (as Wauthan says).
Also note that I imagine *one* nation of 18 (a new nation) primarily trying to be moral (I prefer not to use the term "good", for the good reasons that Karacan mentioned) as part of their national identity. This would certainly be a different nation than, say, Marignon, who also believes in its own "good"ness to the point of fanatacism.
As to the reference to realism Karacan mentioned: that is not (I think) the issue at all.
Oh and sure there is something to be said for easy demarcations between game and reality; of course. But anyone who has even begun to read any scientific literature in the areas of cognitive pedagogics, modern didactics, and social psychology will tell you that -- although there is no real consensus at the moment amongst all researchers -- there appears to be at least a slight correlation between the way that persons conceive of their real-life world and the way that persons conceive of their fictionalized worlds; if people like Ricoeur are not completely wrong (and I happen to think that Ricoeur has, despite many points not fully articulated that need further explanation and empirical backing), there is a lot to be said about our identity as a "narrative", which can be interwoven with that which some have simply refered to as "fiction"; Ricouer shows that these seemingly simple boundaries are nifty heuristic devices, but nothing more. Drawing boundaries between real life and, say, gaming worlds requires a high degree of normative work, and cannot be taken for granted, at least not by everybody. So sure: here game, there reality, but no: it's not quite that simple, and certainly not for everybody.

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by fahdiz:

quote:

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Originally posted by tinkthank:
So sure: here game, there reality, but no: it's not quite that simple, and certainly not for everybody.

Exactly. That is precisely why I said that some games are for *mature* adults who are capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality. Just being an adult, biologically and legally, isn't really enough.

And of course the things you do for entertainment have a certain impact, no matter how small, on your day to day life. But it works the other way around, as well, as an "outlet".

EDIT: I forgot to add that with a degree in Secondary Education as well as a naturally inquisitive mind, I read enough theories on cognition to turn my eyeballs brown.

---

OK!
Is turning your eyeballs brown a good or a bad thing (in your eyes -- bad pun not intended)?
So it seems like at least some pacifistic options could thus be not only fun, but also great for a target group of young persons, such as my kids. (right?)

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
OK!
Is turning your eyeballs brown a good or a bad thing (in your eyes -- bad pun not intended)?

Heh. I simply mean to say that because cognitive science is full of so many grey areas (like all social sciences, as cognitive theory really doesn't have the hallmarks of "hard science"), there is an awful lot of crap to wade through in order to get to something of any value. My eyes are green, for the record.

So it seems like at least some pacifistic options could thus be not only fun, but also great for a target group of young persons, such as my kids. (right?)

Or your kids could simply play different games, and Dom II could be left where it is, for its intended audience. In Age of Wonders II there are some benefits to pacifism and diplomacy, depending on the race you're playing (the Spirit of Order seems to like pacifists a lot, and it's a crucial part of the strategy for the "life"-based races) and in a game like Civ II or III you can concentrate for a large part of the game on winning by Wonders and diplomacy rather than by war.

Dom II is a fantasy wargame, rather than a civilization sim or so-called "god game". The fact that its niche is so closely defined allows Illwinter to take that niche to its ultimate level of depth.

[ March 08, 2004, 15:41: Message edited by: fahdiz ]