Iron Faith: Comments and Suggestions

[Sandman]

Iron Faith is a rather weak theme. It's certainly playable, but needs improving, in my view.

At first glance, Iron Faith seems to be a reasonably powerful theme. It has every single Ulmish unit apart from the master smith, as well as a 1 earth, 1 random, 3 holy mage-priest with a forge bonus and the inquisition ability. It also has a powerful sacred knight, the black templar.

However, by losing the smith, Iron Faith has made two large sacrifices. The drain immunity of the smith makes drain 3 a no-brainer for regular Ulm, liberating design points. The increased magic resistance and fatigue on non-smiths is also helpful. Iron Faith is forced to take drain 1, but the black priests are not drain-immune, so their research ability is dreadfully weak. A higher drain scale would make them even weaker, so it's not really viable. This means that compared to normal Ulm, Iron Faith has, for all intents and purposes, a cost of 80 design points.

The second sacrifice is the lack of mage with 2+ in any field of magic. Sure, there's a chance of a 2 earth black priest, but only 1 in 8. 2 earth opens the gateway to all sorts of neat stuff: earth boots and then dwarven hammers, assorted earth summons and lots of useful spells that are reasonably synergistic with the units of Ulm: blade wind, legions of steel, strength of giants, gnome lore and the very handy earth power.

Apart from the 2 earth black priests (which are very valuable), other black priests are left casting personal/one-square buffs or very limited attack spells, with no fatigue reduction. Iron Faith's default spell is still legions of steel, despite having to research to con-4 or conj-3 to have any hope of casting it. In terms of magic, then, Iron Faith is weaker than the default. IIRC, it's the only theme without a mage with a guaranteed level 2 in any path of magic.

What advantages does Iron Faith have? They have better priests, obviously, able to cast sermon of courage and better banishments. Killing more undead and preventing routing is an obvious improvement on Ulm, which is weak in these areas. Unfortunately, the black priests seem prefer casting personal buffs, rather than sermon of courage.

The random magic pick combined with the forge bonus means that Iron Faith can make a huge variety of low level items, compared to regular Ulm. Although this is somewhat offset by the relative ease by which default Ulm can acquire dwarven hammers and give them to indy mages.

The usage of sacred units allows bless effects to be usefully employed, as well as reducing gold spent on upkeep. Two black priests cost the same upkeep as one smith, which is just as well, because they have only one more research point between them.

The bless effects cost points, however, and also replace the usual rainbow pretender for Ulm, unless you go for a rainbow/bless hybrid with 4 levels in several areas. Additionally, compared to other nations, Iron Faith has only an average blessable selection.

Without a rainbow mage, Iron Faith adopts a chaotic approach to searching, sending black priests out searching normally, as well as using astral, death or 2-earth BPs for site-searching spells. This seems to work reasonably well.

As well as the templars and the priests, there's also the rather useless black acolyte. He costs 10 less than a normal priest, but is otherwise identical. I suppose he keeps your army colour coordinated.

Suggestions for improvement:

Either give black priests 2 earth or drain-immunity, accompanied by a modest increase in cost. These are the two areas where Iron Faith really loses out to normal Ulm, and IMO, altering one of these will only serve to balance, not overpower.

Replace the Black Lord with a Black Paladin. This is as much a flavour thing as anything else, but it seems unfair to have a nation which demands a bless-effect, and is influenced by Marignon, not to have a blessable melee commander.

Create a cheaper earth 3 pretender. The earth bless is decent for sacred units and mage-priests, is synergistic with Ulm's starting gem income and research goals, and is by far the most thematically correct of the bless effects. The Cyclops is pretty pricey for a nation that needs decent scales and a good fortress.

"By faith in iron shall Ulm survive" Give Iron Faith special holy spells that reflect their religion. A holy Version of legions of steel or strength of giants, for example, to offset their lack of earth 2. Maybe even make the effects of these spells dependent on the amount of armour the unit is wearing. It certainly fits with the theme. But it violates the convention that holy spells are the same for every living nation; only the dead nations have variation in their unholyness. It could also be hideously overpowered.

Black acolytes could be made more useful by being stealthy; this fits in with the influence of Marignon on the theme.

A more powerful, capital-only, Version of the black priest would also help reduce Iron faith's magical limitations. Say 2 earth, 2 random, 3 holy. This unit would have to be expensive to reflect the general magic weakness of Ulm.

Additional sacred troops are another possibilty. The obvious candidate is the Guardian, who I can see little reason to build as Iron Faith, when sermon of courage is readily available, and black templars are more powerful.

Comments?

[PvK]

Overall I like your thinking, though I see some of your points differently, so I don't think Iron Faith is really weaker than Ulm. Specifically:

Originally posted by Sandman:
...
Iron Faith is forced to take drain 1, but the black priests are not drain-immune, so their research ability is dreadfully weak. A higher drain scale would make them even weaker, so it's not really viable. This means that compared to normal Ulm, Iron Faith has, for all intents and purposes, a cost of 80 design points.

I disagree. Your logic does pose a question for design, but I think Drain 1, 2, or 3 are all valid choices for Iron Faith. The reason I think so is that with the new priests, they have more access to research-boosting items, and Ulm generally researches Construction and has forge bonuses, so they don't need to get strong research from priests. My Iron Faith games tend to have cheapo summoned or indy mages doing the research, laden with research boost items, which easily overpower the drain penalty. My priests rarely research, anyway - they're all forging, casting, and supporting field armies.

The second sacrifice is the lack of mage with 2+ in any field of magic. Sure, there's a chance of a 2 earth black priest, but only 1 in 8. 2 earth opens the gateway to all sorts of neat stuff: earth boots and then dwarven hammers, assorted earth summons and lots of useful spells that are reasonably synergistic with the units of Ulm: blade wind, legions of steel, strength of giants, gnome lore and the very handy earth power.

This is true, but regular Ulm has zero variety in its natural mages. Having a random is very different and, in my view, at least as useful as the 2-earth on the smith. It's just not the usual Ulm thing. It does tempt the pretender to take 2 or more earth power, but that's an interesting design dilemma, and not, I think, a worse weakness than the random pick is a bonus.

Apart from the 2 earth black priests (which are very valuable), other black priests are left casting personal/one-square buffs or very limited attack spells, with no fatigue reduction.

Or, in battle, casting holy-3 spells. Mainly mine do construction, and also I have my pretender or other mages which become available, forge them some power-boosting items, at which point, suddenly they have all sorts of uses, particularly with their forge bonus. It's not automatic, but it's just a step away - there's a lot of potential there that standard Ulm doesn't have, or not as easily.

Iron Faith's default spell is still legions of steel, despite having to research to con-4 or conj-3 to have any hope of casting it.

With the priests, true. Though, they will almost always research Con-4 in order to make good use of their forging bonuses.

...
The usage of sacred units allows bless effects to be usefully employed, as well as reducing gold spent on upkeep. Two black priests cost the same upkeep as one smith, which is just as well, because they have only one more research point between them.

Right, and Black Templars also offer similar savings over Black Knights.

...
As well as the templars and the priests, there's also the rather useless black acolyte. He costs 10 less than a normal priest, but is otherwise identical. I suppose he keeps your army colour coordinated.

Rather useless? Ordinary priests are useful, and 20% savings is not bad. Color coordination is always nice too.

...
Additional sacred troops are another possibilty. The obvious candidate is the Guardian, who I can see little reason to build as Iron Faith, when sermon of courage is readily available, and black templars are more powerful.

I like Guardians, and would enjoy having a sacred Version to play with. I do build them in my Iron Faith games, because they are a much different kind of unit from Templars, and are cheaper.

As for your suggested improvements, I don't think Iron Faith really needs any, for the above reasons, however I would like to see a Templar commander. That alone would be a meaningful boost, because Ulm is generally an item factory, and this would give them a strong blessable fighting unit which can also have items. It sort of seems like an omission to not have a Templar commander, but maybe IW thought it was an interestingly ironic limitation (which it is).

An expensive (over-priced because it would fill a vital niche) capital-only earth-2 priest is an interesting idea, though as I wrote above, it would remove an interesting dilemma when making the pretender, and I don't think it's really needed. I do like the flavor of your other suggestions, but for the above reasons, I don't see them as necessary for balance.

PvK

[Chris Byler]

I concur with the Templar Commander suggestion.

Instead of a "Black Grandmaster" unit, though, why not an Iron Patriarch national hero specific to the Iron Faith theme (perhaps the founder of the Iron Inquisition)? Then IW can be a little more liberal with his abilities (Earth-3 Holy-4?) without it being too overpowered because you can only have one of him. And if you don't take a strong Earth pretender, you could still make up for it with the Iron Patriarch - if you have a luck scale and can get him reasonably soon. National heroes are not just cool, they can have a significant impact on a game.

Actually, Black Paladin could work as a hero instead of a unit, too; but I like it as a commander unit, to lead the Templar into battle (I do the same thing with Knights of the Chalice and Paladins; if you put the commander in the middle of the knights his bless will hit most or all of them).

As for the Black Acolyte, do you think he would be more interesting as a Battle Deacon-like fighting priest (wearing Ulmish chain or even Ulmish plate, with hammer and shield)? Armor encumbrance would limit his use of banishment, but he could still bless himself and other sacred units and be more resistant to stray (or even well-aimed) arrows. With the right bless effect or maybe an item or two he could be quite handy, especially for such a low cost (of course he would cost more resources if he is decked out in Ulmish armor). Seems appropriate for at least some Ulmish priests to do their preaching from the front lines, anyway.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Sandman:
The bless effects cost points, however, and also replace the usual rainbow pretender for Ulm, unless you go for a rainbow/bless hybrid with 4 levels in several areas.

I would never use a rainbow mage for Ulm. They have no real way to use any gems other than earth and fire without independent mages, and those mages can search for the gems themselves. Ulm is much better off with a strong combat pretender or spellcaster, like an air 6 titan than a rainbow mage.

Without a rainbow mage, Iron Faith adopts a chaotic approach to searching, sending black priests out searching normally, as well as using astral, death or 2-earth BPs for site-searching spells.

That's pretty much the standard method of searching for most nations. I wouldn't call it chaotic.

Either give black priests 2 earth or drain-immunity, accompanied by a modest increase in cost.

This would make the iron faith theme unequivocably better than standard Ulm, since it would have more magical ability and no associated weaknesses.

I believe it has been suggested before. But to make IF have a single Assassin unit (for variety) and the Black Acolyte either A.) Stealth or B.) Inquisition bonus, or if we are lucky C.) Both.

That would change the dynamic of the IF. I personally don't think it's weak, as much as it's very hard to play effectively. I don't ever discount being able to make alot of cheap weapons and armors, as that is how I win most of my games is by masses of minicombs.

[Sandman]

I disagree. Your logic does pose a question for design, but I think Drain 1, 2, or 3 are all valid choices for Iron Faith. The reason I think so is that with the new priests, they have more access to research-boosting items, and Ulm generally researches Construction and has forge bonuses, so they don't need to get strong research from priests. My Iron Faith games tend to have cheapo summoned or indy mages doing the research, laden with research boost items, which easily overpower the drain penalty. My priests rarely research, anyway - they're all forging, casting, and supporting field armies.

You have to rely on getting the right random picks, as well as relying on finding sources of air, death and fire gems. Getting skull mentors, in particular, seems like an awfully tall order. And it's not exactly thematic for a holy style nation to find itself in desperate need of death gems.

There are nations that are as good or better for a max-drain research item strategy; ones with guaranteed air, death or fire gems and mages. But even then it's still a risky strategy, to my mind. And regular Ulm can also make research items, whilst still having an average researcher to fall back on.

This is true, but regular Ulm has zero variety in its natural mages. Having a random is very different and, in my view, at least as useful as the 2-earth on the smith. It's just not the usual Ulm thing. It does tempt the pretender to take 2 or more earth power, but that's an interesting design dilemma, and not, I think, a worse weakness than the random pick is a bonus.

If you want variety, indy mages are a lot better. Admittedly, they're not 'guaranteed', but pretty likely, especially with a rainbow pretender.

Or, in battle, casting holy-3 spells. Mainly mine do construction, and also I have my pretender or other mages which become available, forge them some power-boosting items, at which point, suddenly they have all sorts of uses, particularly with their forge bonus. It's not automatic, but it's just a step away - there's a lot of potential there that standard Ulm doesn't have, or not as easily.

The two holy 3 spells are a poor substitute for all those wonderful earth spells, IMO. Ulm can get indy mages as well, and give them dwarven hammers: it's not automatic, but it's just a step away.

With the priests, true. Though, they will almost always research Con-4 in order to make good use of their forging bonuses.

I've just realised that this applies to the smiths as well. Although they're guaranteed to be able to cast it, rather than having a 1 in 8 chance.

Rather useless? Ordinary priests are useful, and 20% savings is not bad. Color coordination is always nice too.

If you're fighting a dead nation, you'll just mass produce generic priests from all your provinces, like normal Ulm would do. It's a waste to use your fortress provinces to make them, when you could be making black priests, or spies.

As for the Black Acolyte, do you think he would be more interesting as a Battle Deacon-like fighting priest (wearing Ulmish chain or even Ulmish plate, with hammer and shield)? Armor encumbrance would limit his use of banishment, but he could still bless himself and other sacred units and be more resistant to stray (or even well-aimed) arrows. With the right bless effect or maybe an item or two he could be quite handy, especially for such a low cost (of course he would cost more resources if he is decked out in Ulmish armor). Seems appropriate for at least some Ulmish priests to do their preaching from the front lines, anyway.

I have to confess that I've never really seen much use for the battle deacon. Is there something I'm missing?

Having said that, having sacred melee commanders, like Jotunheim, would seem to be a nice addition. Might be overpowered though.

I would never use a rainbow mage for Ulm. They have no real way to use any gems other than earth and fire without independent mages, and those mages can search for the gems themselves. Ulm is much better off with a strong combat pretender or spellcaster, like an air 6 titan than a rainbow mage.

But with a rainbow mage you can find more, and better, independent mages, often with a free lab or even fortress. Once those indy mages are given dwarven hammers, they can keep a good supply of items coming. Regular Ulm will not gain any blessing benefit from having a caster pretender, either.

That's pretty much the standard method of searching for most nations. I wouldn't call it chaotic.

Ah well. I prefer to use a rainbow mage or a team of diverse mages to search in a systematic fashion.

This would make the iron faith theme unequivocably better than standard Ulm, since it would have more magical ability and no associated weaknesses.

I don't think that it would. It has these two weaknesses, but it doesn't gain enough strength in other areas. A drain-immune Iron faith would still have limited mages. A 2 earth Iron faith would still suffer from drain. Plus I advocate a higher cost for the upgraded BPs, a new associated weakness.

[ May 01, 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: Sandman ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Sandman:
You have to rely on getting the right random picks, as well as relying on finding sources of air, death and fire gems.

Getting the right random picks won't be very hard, since Black Priests are cheap enough that you can build multiple per turn. Getting the right gems can be done, but may take a little while for them to start showing up in quantity.

And regular Ulm can also make research items, whilst still having an average researcher to fall back on.

Regular Ulm can't make lightless lanterns till construction 6, and then they still have to find a source of air gems.

If you want variety, indy mages are a lot better. Admittedly, they're not 'guaranteed', but pretty likely, especially with a rainbow pretender.

The independent mages that you are most likely to find are probably going to be jade amazons, shaman, and druids. These can take care of nature and water searching. Your own black priests can handle death, earth and astral. That leaves only fire and air to search with in some other manner if you really want independent mages.

But with a rainbow mage you can find more, and better, independent mages, often with a free lab or even fortress. Once those indy mages are given dwarven hammers, they can keep a good supply of items coming. Regular Ulm will not gain any blessing benefit from having a caster pretender, either.

Bless effects are not going to be worth it on the black lord, unless you get both air 9 and astral 9 to cover their weaknesses.

I find rainbow mages very overrated, for any nation. It is just as easy, and usually faster, to site search with your national mages and site searching spells.

I don't think that it would. It has these two weaknesses, but it doesn't gain enough strength in other areas. A drain-immune Iron faith would still have limited mages.

They certainly aren't any worse than the standard Ulm mages, since they have much more versatility.

A 2 earth Iron faith would still suffer from drain. Plus I advocate a higher cost for the upgraded BPs, a new associated weakness. [/QB]

It's not much of a weakness, since even at 200 gold they could afford multiple mages per turn.

[Sandman]

Getting the right random picks won't be very hard, since Black Priests are cheap enough that you can build multiple per turn. Getting the right gems can be done, but may take a little while for them to start showing up in quantity.

Mass producing priests for the right random pick is horribly inefficient. You'd need multiple fortresses, for a start, which is hardly cheap.

Regular Ulm can't make lightless lanterns till construction 6, and then they still have to find a source of air gems.

That's why I use a rainbow pretender for Ulm. To find air mages and air gems (although laterns require fire gems). The rainbow pretender is much more dependable that a 1 in 8 air BP.

The independent mages that you are most likely to find are probably going to be jade amazons, shaman, and druids. These can take care of nature and water searching. Your own black priests can handle death, earth and astral. That leaves only fire and air to search with in some other manner if you really want independent mages.

I wasn't talking about searching. Whilst Iron Faith has more variety in its magic, regular Ulm can easily gain the variety they lack by employing a rainbow pretender and getting hidden mage sites. And regular Ulm has a good, dependable mage available even if nothing is found.

Bless effects are not going to be worth it on the black lord, unless you get both air 9 and astral 9 to cover their weaknesses.

????

I find rainbow mages very overrated, for any nation. It is just as easy, and usually faster, to site search with your national mages and site searching spells.

OK, well I consider a rainbow mage to be an effective way of countering Ulm's weaknesses.

They certainly aren't any worse than the standard Ulm mages, since they have much more versatility.

One random pick does not equal 'much more' versatility. They can forge low-level items cheaply, sure, but their role on the battlefield is limited to casting weak attack and buff spells at maximum fatigue, as well as priest spells.

Can you give some examples of their great versatility? How does this help their cause as much as being able to reliably cast blade wind, strength of giants, legions of steel and other powerful earth spells?

It's not much of a weakness, since even at 200 gold they could afford multiple mages per turn.

Oh come on. Cost is important.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Sandman:
Mass producing priests for the right random pick is horribly inefficient. You'd need multiple fortresses, for a start, which is hardly cheap.

Ulm can afford a second castle within 10 turns in a normal richness game, and they don't have anything else to spend their gold on, so you build black priests. I don't see how this is any different from mass producing smiths under standard Ulm. It's not like you are planning to have less than 30 or 40 as soon as possible.

That's why I use a rainbow pretender for Ulm. To find air mages and air gems (although laterns require fire gems). The rainbow pretender is much more dependable that a 1 in 8 air BP.

Or you could use an air 6, water 2 titan, and get a unit that could find all your air sites, and most of your water sites, and that would have the ability to throw massive quanties of lightning around.

I wasn't talking about searching. Whilst Iron Faith has more variety in its magic, regular Ulm can easily gain the variety they lack by employing a rainbow pretender and getting hidden mage sites. And regular Ulm has a good, dependable mage available even if nothing is found.

A rainbow pretender lacks focus, and provides no real way to deal with a strong combat pretender. It is also extremely vulnerable to attack, assasination, far slaying spells, and just about everything else that will get thrown at it. There are very few hidden mage sites that can't be found through the use of the site searching spells that IF Ulm has access to through it's priests. It can't get enchantresses, but those aren't particularly common.

Bless effects are not going to be worth it on the black lord, unless you get both air 9 and astral 9 to cover their weaknesses.

Black templars are just as vulnerable to air magic and MR based spells as any other Ulmish troop. They are too expensive to use in large numbers when they will just get decimated by orb lightning and soul slay.

OK, well I consider a rainbow mage to be an effective way of countering Ulm's weaknesses.

And for the same price you could get a combat pretender that would double your rate of expansion, then actually be useful against opposing armies. A rainbow pretender lacks focus, and a strategy can't really be planned around them.

One random pick does not equal 'much more' versatility.

Of course it does. They have access to every path of magic at a low level, whereas standard Ulm has access to _only_ earth 2 fire 1. There would be no reason to play standard Ulm if the priests had drain immunity.

They can forge low-level items cheaply, sure, but their role on the battlefield is limited to casting weak attack and buff spells at maximum fatigue, as well as priest spells.

How is this any different from standard Ulm? They gain slightly easier access to blade wind, and the ability to cast magma eruption and magma bolts.

[quote]Can you give some examples of their great versatility?[quote]

They have access to every single path of magic. Ulm doesn't. They can build every item that needs combinations of fire 1, air 1, water 2, earth 3, nature 1, astral 1, death 1, and blood 1 just through the use of path boosters that are available to them through construction research.

How does this help their cause as much as being able to reliably cast blade wind, strength of giants, legions of steel and other powerful earth spells?

Legions of steel is not a powerful earth spell. It's a fairly weak armor buff, which gives Ulm more armor, something it doesn't really need. I get annoyed every single time a smith wastes fatigue casting that spell. As for blade wind, earth boots only cost you 5 gems as Ulm, so it's not much harder to get multiple mages that can cast it.

Oh come on. Cost is important.

Cost is important, but not that important to Ulm. They will almost always have more gold than they know what to do with once past turn 10 or so. This is especially true when your mages are scared. Most nations will recruit multiple 200 gold mages per turn once they have the income to do so, and if they don't they will tend to lose magical battles.

[PvK]

Rainbow pretenders can work well for Ulm, and I'd say particularly for Iron Faith, because the RB pretender can get the Black Priests "started" with a set of power-boosting items, after which they can go to town with boosting items and manufacture just about anything.

My first try at this (and my second game of Dom2 - first was Arco and the Marignon AI wiped me out) was extremely successful. Pretender was a rainbow Ghost King, who made death gem income quite easy, thanks very much - all research is performed by lowly necromancers and revenants equipped with skull mentors and other research boost items. The above technique was used to get a "full house" of Black Priests with hammers and boost items forging and casting just about anything. I even have blood magic going on thanks to the random picks. The Ghost King can also deal with, or if needed, serve as, a supercombatant, but that wasn't really necessary.

PvK