Expert Players vs Newbies game

[Gandalf Parker]

Expert Players vs Newbies game
OK now that I have your attention...

Im trying to revive interest in my "WE vs THEM" project. http://www.dom2minions.com/WEvsTHEM.shtml
OK I will dig up a smaller map. Maybe something like..
MEDIUM 10 each, or 170 total provinces. Best done as 150 land and 20 water.
LARGE 15 each, or 255 total provinces. Best done as 225 land and 30 water.

What I have in mind is for the Expert Players to design the AI opponents to be hard (Ermor, Atlantis, and Rlyeh. No MOD I think. Just pretender designs). Then have a newbie game where they all ally with each other against the fearful-3. That way new players wont feel pressed into a prove-yourself player-vs-player game right off the bat.

[ May 27, 2004, 22:24: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[PvK]

LOL! Good one, Gandalf!

I don't count as expert for pretender-optimizing, so I'll defer to the experts on that!

PvK

[Norfleet]

So if I'm to understand the question, the experts should not necessarily be experts on Dominions II's multiplayer aspect, but instead, experts on single-player Dominions II, and how to design a pretender most suitable not for themselves, but for the AI.

The catch being that AIs never pursue anything that's defineable as a strategy, but instead, just sort of operate in an ad-hoc manner, frequently getting its pretender killed. As such, pretender builds optimized for specific esoteric strategies will be of no use to the AI, who will not pursue said strategy.

With this in mind, the best choice is scales with a no-magic wyrm. Since the AI will casually get its pretender killed, and any magically-oriented pretender will uselessly cast spells until it passes out, the AI pretender should be denied this by not being magical. Ermor should be given, instead, a death-magic POD.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
With this in mind, the best choice is scales with a no-magic wyrm. Since the AI will casually get its pretender killed, and any magically-oriented pretender will uselessly cast spells until it passes out, the AI pretender should be denied this by not being magical. Ermor should be given, instead, a death-magic POD.

Well the design would tend to be one trying to work around the AIs weak points. The AI bonuses for hard and impossible settings only gives it gods with more points so the design does not have to stay within the human-player choice range.

I was actually playing with the idea of giving all 3 of them Wyrms. Since the nations have it in common it made for a good storyline having them all be children of one nest. They have decided to become the leaders of seperate nations and ally against everyone else.

Magic, scales, equipment all can be added. Also extra starting commanders, troops, and maybe 2 or 3 castles each right from the start. The hard part will be finding the balance. Im hoping to achieve something that CAN be beat but only be beat by an alliance.

Im more interested in running things to help move new players forward than I am in games for experts to fight each other. This is one type of game I would be willing to keep always running on my server over and over. Which means (of course) that if we also wanted to add abit of random to this then that would be fine also.

[ May 28, 2004, 14:59: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Tris]

Can you script Messages to occur in game on certain turns? This would make a fantastic tutorial.

You could write a multiplayer tutorial, with set starting positions and races. On your first turn you might get a message saying something like this:

"Welcome lord, to your throne room. You have appeared at Last, as legend said you would, in the hour of our greatest need.

Three foul wyrms, sibulant siblings of the same nest, have emerged to lead the evil nations of X,Y and Z in a foul crusade, to wipe all free creatures from this world.

We have allies in the nations of B and C, but our foes are strong, and only if we work together can we destroy the three wyrms.

We have a small army already. I humbly suggest you organise Borok to lead them into battle, and have him stay behind the lines while the heavy troops charge forwards at their nearest foe. (Select the province "Capitalton" and then click on "Arrange Units". Select all the heavy troops at the top, and click on Borok to form a new unit. Click on "Click here to select orders" and set Borok to Stay behind troops, and the troops to "Attack nearest".) Having done this, send them at the province to the West. I am reliably informed they are weakly defended, and should proove an easy conquest"

I'd be very glad to write such a tutorial's text, though I'm perhaps not (yet :-) the best person to ask for it's content.

[Tuskerlove]

I'd be interested in playing as a beginner if you decide to set this up. I feel like I'm missing a lot of the complexities of the game and I'm not certain why.

[LintMan]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
So if I'm to understand the question, the experts should not necessarily be experts on Dominions II's multiplayer aspect, but instead, experts on single-player Dominions II, and how to design a pretender most suitable not for themselves, but for the AI.

The catch being that AIs never pursue anything that's defineable as a strategy, but instead, just sort of operate in an ad-hoc manner, frequently getting its pretender killed. As such, pretender builds optimized for specific esoteric strategies will be of no use to the AI, who will not pursue said strategy.

With this in mind, the best choice is scales with a no-magic wyrm. Since the AI will casually get its pretender killed, and any magically-oriented pretender will uselessly cast spells until it passes out, the AI pretender should be denied this by not being magical. Ermor should be given, instead, a death-magic POD.

I'm certainly not an expert, but I think that I've seen the AI reserve its high-magic human pretenders (ie: great enchantress) for rituals/research, instead of sending it out to die. So designing some sort of high-research, high bless-effect or rainbow mage on a human chassis might also work OK for the AIs.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Tris:
Can you script Messages to occur in game on certain turns? This would make a fantastic tutorial.

Afraid not. Apparently MODs can be swapped in and out during a game. Also, Im thinking maybe the map image file can. I might play with doing that so that a "message" to the player, or certain highlights, could be changed in mid-game

I have a couple of other newbie-tutor things in the works. A new Version of mini-map being done as a tutorial on mapping. And a "care package" for new players which will include a full set of premade gods, a started game, and a web-based walkthru. Whats done so far is scattered into a directory at http://www.dom2minions.com/starter/

Im also considering a Version of the web-game board being worked on here to run something of my own. Somewhere between the MP games its doing now, and the competition ladder done by battlesite. Mine will be an arcade ladder where everyone plays against the AI for the "top 10" score position in each Category. Not only would that be good for newbs but I think the data might be helpful to the devs.

[Gandalf Parker]

so any offers? If not then I will eventually get around to whipping one out myself. I dont want to hear any comments about how badly I achieve it from the various experts in AI behaviour

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by LintMan:
I'm certainly not an expert, but I think that I've seen the AI reserve its high-magic human pretenders (ie: great enchantress) for rituals/research, instead of sending it out to die. So designing some sort of high-research, high bless-effect or rainbow mage on a human chassis might also work OK for the AIs.

AIs can't play bless effects worth crap. Instead of focussing on their sacred units, they'll continue to churn out LI and militia. They don't even accompany their sacreds with a priest to bless them! No human player would ever use his sacred units without a priest...but the AI doesn't care.

It follows that the AI should not be playing a bless effect.

The AI also does not intelligently use spell tactics or forge items. You just don't see wrathing squads, drainlife/skeleton squads, flaming arrow casters, or any of the obvious spell manuevers that humans pull.

This is why the AI does very badly with mage and summon-oriented nations such as Mictlan, and does much better with straightforward nations like Ulm.

In conclusion, it's mostly a waste to give the AI any kind of magic on its pretender: It won't know how to effectively use that magic to summon powerful critters and/or equip them with goodies. The no-magic wyrm for anyone but Ermor, who needs at least some death magic to create commanders, is what the AI will handle best.

[ May 29, 2004, 20:05: Message edited by: Norfleet ]