Newbie guide to SCs?

[Quarthinos]

I'm working my way through my third game of the full Version, which I seem to be winning... I've been reading the forums and there seems to be a consensus that some units (mostly pretenders) can be turned into SCs, some only with equipment...

The one that interests me specifically is the Shedu, as I might place Arco as my next Race. There was a discussion recently where some were saying the Shedu is a useful SC in the early game, but there was a caveat of starting at turn 3 or so. What's important to do in the first two turns so that the Shedu becomes an SC?


More generally, what specific items/spells make an SC? Why are some units better than say (to use an example from my current game) an Ulm master smith that I've rainbowed so I can forge all the unique items? Irealize the question is probably overly broad, which is why I asked about the Shedu specifically. If someone can list what needs to be done with the Shedu to make him an SC? I realize from the discussion earlier that he's appearently only good aganist indeps in the early game, not for the end game when Torin (to make a MoM reference) walks the Earth, but if someone can give me a detailed recipe to start, I can experiment with other ingredients in an attempt to improve. One more caveat: I'm generally interested in SP, at least for a few months, but if someone wants to point out the counters to SCs for use when I eventually get to MP, that'd be worth extra points to your personal Dominion. I'm generally aware of why getting aStral of less than 5 or so is a Bad Thing (TM), but which races can easily do mind duel out of the box might be helpful to know so that if those races aren't in, I can only buy 2 or 3 S if I want.


Thanks for the replies, and if this has been talked to death, by all means point me at previous threads... (Although "search for SC in threads" will be ignored as lacking subtlety).


I think this post is too long and rambling for a Non-AAR, but Oh, Well!

Q

[Blitz]

The one that interests me specifically is the Shedu, as I might place Arco as my next Race. There was a discussion recently where some were saying the Shedu is a useful SC in the early game

Dude seriously don't believe everything you read. That thread was dedicated to some people wishing to prove he wasn't worthless, not that he was by any means the best choice, certianly not for a newer player =).

More generally, what specific items/spells make an SC?

For any supercombatant, I generally consider the bare minimum for magic paths to be earth level 3 and water level 2. Other magic paths can give bonuses, but generally these are the most important two. Earth 3 gives you the stoneskin/ironskin/invulnerability line, as well as the fatigue-reducing summon earthpower. Air 2 gives you Mirror Image and Mistform, as well as the mobility spell cloud trapeeze.

So for a bare minumum SC, playing Arcoscephale, you could try this:

Virtue
Dominion 7
EEE AAA

That leaves you with 280 points for scales and your castle... which is a lot. She's good in the early game because of her awe, and later you can add a haste item to make up for the lack of quickness.

However, spend a little more and you could have...

Virtue OR Nataraja
Dominion 7
AAA WWW EEE

Leaving 160 points for scales and castle. Either of these two pretenders with these magic paths cost exactly the same, the decision is made as to if you want 4 arms or awe and flying... plus an extra misc slot. The Virtue is more mobile and better in the first 15-20 turns, but in the late game, not much is better than a Nataraja with all the toys.

The water magic in the above two examples is for two things. Most obviously quickness, but less obvious is breath of winter, which is a cold aura which kills nearby troops.

Other useful magic paths are death magic (for soul vortex), and nature magic (personal regeneration, elemental fortitude). These are generally thought to be less useful than air, water, and earth... although I'm sure some would disagree.

As for equipment, one item stands out. The Wraith Sword will drain your opponent's life and add it to your own. This amounts to huge regeneration of both life and fatigue. Until you have a good grasp of SC's in general, use this weapon. Other critical items are the Pendant of Luck, and the Amulet of Antimagic.

If you were to outfit the above Nataraja, I would suggest the following gear:

Wraith Sword (life draining)
Charcoal Shield (Fire Shield)
Faithful (for luck)
flame helmet (fire resistance)
Hydra Skin Armor (or robe of shadows)
Winged Shoes (flying good)
Amulet of Antimagic (magic resistance)

For the Virtue, try this...

Wraith Sword
Flame Helmet (fire resistance)
Hydra Skin Armor (or robe of shadows)
Boots of the messenger
Amulet of Antimagic
Pendant of Luck

Good luck.

[Blitz]

One final thing. When playing Acroscephale it's sometimes difficult to get 2 levels of death magic for the wraith sword without taking it on your pretender. There are a few ways around this, but often I will simply empower my first philosopher with death magic up to level 2. This means your wraith sword costs 40 death gems (or maybe even 80 astral pearls), but it's very difficult to get around that while using either the Nataraja or Virtue.

One way to do it is to take death level 3 instead of water level 3. Then you can use boots of quickness (or jade armor) instead of quickness, and soul vortex instead of breath of winter. Of course this solution makes the wraith sword somewhat redundant, but I digress.

[Norfleet]

The most important aspect of an SC is not his raw ability to kill things necessarily, but his ability not to get killed. Because it doesn't matter how hard you hit if you don't Last long enough to do any pummelling.

Several methods exist towards the "not being killed" angle: The first is to stack on protective magics and innate defenses like ethereal, lucky, mirror image, mistform, astral shield, etc. The second is to have very high values of protection, defense, and hitpoints. The third is to recover from damage faster than you can take it: regeneration and lifesteal. By combining all 3 of these elements together, you get something that just won't die easily.

Then, you need endurance: Your prospective SC is useless if he ends up nose down in the dirt from fatigue before he can complete his killing spree and people put him down like a dog. This can be accomplished through either high levels of reinvigoration, being 0-encumberance, or lifesteal.

Lastly, you need to be able to kill stuff. This means you need preferrably a modest value of attack, and probably some damage shields, or your ability to inflict carnage will cap out and you will lose battles from expiration: For weak swarmers, Fire Shield is good. Breath of Winter excellent also, as is Soul Vortex, which also provides lifesteal at the same time it hurts things. The pain inflicted by Soul Vortex is not really that much, however, so don't count on this as a hardcore damage shield. SV is also fairly high-tech, requiring Alt-6, so won't be available to you too early. Ability to move and attack twice a round via quickness is good, too.

Therefore, the components of a good SC: Many magical defenses, high defense and protection, low or no encumberance, lifesteal, regeneration, and high MR.

Examples:
Vampire Queen: naked: Quickness, Mirror, Mistform, Ironskin, Breath of Winter, attack
Ice Devil: blood thorn, lucky coin, starshine, robe of shadows, AMA, regen ring, flying shoes: Quickness, BoW, Attack
Niefel Jarl: Hellsword, Starshine, Hydra Skin, AMA, Lucky Pendant, Flying Shoes.
Bane Lord: Wraith Sword, Jade Armor, Starshine, AMA, Pendant, Flying Shoes: Attack.

These all of varying degrees of availability and strength, but all have a good selection of the above traits.

The Shedu, in my opinion, falls short because his primary attack form is trampling, which means he will fatigue out after about 10-15 tramples under the best of conditions. While his spell buffs can be tolerable enough to keep him alive, and he has many hitpoints, this isn't enough to save him once he passes out....and he will pass out. You can alleviate this problem of a Shedu or similar chassis becoming overwhelmed by accompanying him with troops, but he's no longer able to simple go on solo rampages through the countryside, mowing down entire armies unassisted, which is what SCs do. Thus, Shedu are bad SCs.

[Blitz]

Ice Devil: blood thorn, lucky coin, starshine, robe of shadows, AMA, regen ring, flying shoes: Quickness, BoW, Attack
Niefel Jarl: Hellsword, Starshine, Hydra Skin, AMA, Lucky Pendant, Flying Shoes.
Bane Lord: Wraith Sword, Jade Armor, Starshine, AMA, Pendant, Flying Shoes: Attack.

It should be noted that all three of the above are excellent examples of SC's and available to a single race... Jotenhiem. For your first game with SC's I would suggest not using arcoscephale, as it is one of the weakest races for supporting SC's. The lack of blood/death magic restricts lifedraining weapons, and similarily many of the best SC's are from those two magic paths. For Arco, the best, but still not easily summoned SC is the Air Queen, which I believe comes with conjuration 7.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
It should be noted that all three of the above are excellent examples of SC's and available to a single race... Jotenhiem.

I can run the Ice Devils just fine as Mictlan or Caelum, too. The Niefel Jarl is certainly Jotunheim-specific, but the rest aren't.

For your first game with SC's I would suggest not using arcoscephale, as it is one of the weakest races for supporting SC's.

Bullcrap. Arco has great access to churning out a huge variety of wonderful elemental equipments, including the Jade Armors: You'll easily have a WE mystic capable of making those, an FE mystic that can give you charcoal shields, LOTS of astral folks to make those starshines, AMAs, coins, pendants....

And Arco has healing priestesses! Afflictions are a non-issue. Arco is by far one of the BEST nations for supporting an SC! What are you smoking? You must not have seen terribly many Natarajas....

The lack of blood/death magic restricts lifedraining weapons, and similarily many of the best SC's are from those two magic paths.

Taking 2-3 Death on your pretender is all you need to jumpstart the death process: Ench-3 gets you Revenants, summonable D1 mages. Staff them, and they're D2 mages, can summon more revenants, make more staffs, or forge wraith swords. Arco can do this just fine, thanks. I'm having quite an excellent time with SCs as Arco, thank you very much.

[ June 22, 2004, 03:07: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Blitz]

I can run the Ice Devils just fine as Mictlan or Caelum, too. The Niefel Jarl is certainly Jotunheim-specific, but the rest aren't.

I'm aware that other nations can use blood and death magic... I was pointing out that jotunheim can use all three.

I'm having quite an excellent time with SCs as Arco, thank you very much.

You aren't really a newbie are you? I'm sure whatever strategy you are using isn't as simple as buying a neifel jarl and giving him a wraith sword. There are problems you have to get around in order to get death magic with arco. Most of my arcoscephale pretender chassis which include death magic are pretty expensive as well.

I would however, be interested to find out what your Nataraja looks like. AAAEEEDDD?

[ June 22, 2004, 03:19: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Kel]

For your first game with SC's I would suggest not using arcoscephale, as it is one of the weakest races for supporting SC's.

This is true in the early game. In the mid/end game, Arco's variety of magic, ability to craft about anything, being able to site search efficiently (including death), and their astral income gives them a wider variety of SCs than most nations. So it depends on which SCs you are looking at. If you want to see the biggest variety of SCs available in the end game (and experiment with them), Arco is still a good choice, imo.

It also is not hard to get into death magic. I avoid empowering since it is so inefficient but a ring of sorcery, otoh, is always a goal for me, as Arco, in the mid game. From there, its skull staff, skull face and there you have a 4 death caster, assuming you don't find indies that are better.

Blood, otoh, is pretty unlikely, without a good indie mage. Arco's variety of gem income will often let you trade for a few blood slave items (blood thorn, for example, a better fit on Nat than a wraith sword, imo (though a higher const level)) though, honestly, it's hard to get too many since every blood user has their eyes on the ID's or contracts

- Kel

[LintMan]

Here's an alternate SC you can use for Arco:

Ghost King
Air 3
Water 2
Earth 3
Death 3

This leaves you 230 points to spend on scales, dominion (base 3), castle, and perhaps even some extra magic skills as you'd like.

Those magic paths allow you to cast:
Quickness
Ironskin (and later Invulnerability)
Breath of Winter
Mistform
Mirror Image (or perhaps Soul Vortex later)

The Ghost King has some nice built-in advantages over some other SC pretenders:
- he's undead, so he gets: 100% cold/poison res, disease immunity, and best of all: 0 encumberance, so fatigue worries.
- ethereal
- cause fear +6
- chill effect

As soon as you can research 3-4 of the above spells, he's good to go out whopping indeps, but as you are able to research and forge them. you can give him some nice booster items:
- Charcoal Shield (gives flame shield)
- Sword of Quickness (2 attacks/rd)
- Horror Helm (boost fear to insane levels)
- Jade armor (gives auto Quickness)
or
- Rime Hauberk (gives auto Breath of Winter)
- Flying Boots
- Pendant of Luck
- Anti-Magic Amulet

There's plenty of other armor choices you can pick besides those two. I mention those two because they provide effects you're casting spells for, so if you get the item, then you can script a different spell for another sort of boost, such as Air Shield if you're dealing with a lot of massed missile units.

As a side thing to mention: since you're planning to play SP for a while and said you don't want to worry about having your pretender with weak astral getting duelled, you can download the Magic Duel Mod from illwinter's site, which boosts MD's cost to 1 gem/100 fatigue, so you'll almost never see Magic Duel used after that.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
I would however, be interested to find out what your Nataraja looks like. AAAEEEDDD?

5A, 2W, 2E, 4D, is my current build.