Help with nature or Tien Chi/Jotunheim water magic

[HotNifeThruButr]

I think the subject title kinda says it all. I need help with nature magic and water magic on land.

Now, for most magic paths it's pretty clear what you're going to get. (If you've got fire magic, for example, you want to get Evocation for the area of effect nuking spells like Fireball and Falling Fires. )

But nature and water magic (with a land nation) boggles my mind.

Most of the nature summons in Conjuration seem pretty flimsy to me. Couatl and the Firbolg are so-so, most of the animals and vine men/ogres seem to get cut down pretty easily by mundane soldiers. Wild Hunt and Faerie Court... I can picture myself using that, but they're too far up in levels. Instant gratification please! . Altogether, nature isn't that good at conjuration in my opinion.

Alteration for nature gives the protection spells... Next!

Nature evocation has Slime and Vine Arrow. Both are subpar. Sleep Cloud looks decent, but I'm not in love with cloud-type spells. My own troops usually run into them after a turn or two.

Nature construction gets me the Bag of Endless Wine and the Endless Cauldron (or somefink). The Thistle Mace is also pretty good, if only I had some decent spells to cast once I get that +1 nature.

Enchantment has a bunch of healing and fatigue-restoring spells. Would they ever be useful?

Thaumaturgy nature has a bunch of berserk-causing spells. Right now, it sounds like the best bet for nature.

Now, about water magic on land. I am completely oblivious here. I know Jotunheim has alternatives in blood magic and the gygja is kinda versatile. I have no idea how Tien Chi should use the Masters of the Way and Celestial Masters, both with just two levels in water magic.

[Wick]

Let's see, nature conjuration gets you Vine Ogres and 104 hit points for 1 gem is hardly bad, it gets you Lamias with 50% regeneration on a 22 HP (Black Serpent) chassis, it gets you Lamia Queens who give you sorcery, it gets you Ivy Kings who are nice SCs when they aren't summoning VOs, and you did want the 3S on that Couatl, didn't you?

Relief (Enc6) can be very powerful combined with Communion, and as for items, no well-dressed thug is complete without revigoration and regeneration.

I have a much harder time with water. Quickness (Alt2)is ubiquitous of course, either the spell or items for SCs. Frozen Heart (Alt6) is very cool for Masters of the Way and Atlantian initiates.

[Manuk]

charm, sleep.

[PvK]

Slime and Vine arrows are not so bad when they are hitting deadly enemies. Fir Bolg can be very good thugs. Couatl are good tough astral mages. Vine creatures (especially ogres) are very very good for the price - be patient and mass them. Mass Protection is pretty good. Relief can be a very good spell, since it allows much more casting of other spells. Water magic allows entering and attacking the water. Sea King's Court gives an instant tough amphibious army. Quickness, Frozen Heart, and various ice strike spells and eventually Murdering Winter, sword of swiftness, quick boots, clams, jade armor - not enough overpowered toys there?

As with all things, use them for what they are, not what you wish they were.

[Molog]

I'm interrested in what to do with nature magic myself.

The nature sleep cloud spell has the disadvantage that it only works the next turn. Your mages cast it on enemy troops and the enemy troops run away from it towards your troops before the sleep cloud does anything.

Protection is a good spell, because it adds to the armor the unit is wearing.
Eagle eyes gives extra precision, always usefull.
Eagle eyes + tangle vines is nice in incapacitating enemy troops.

Has anyone ever tried the alteration 9 polymorph spell. It has an aoe of 10+, magic resistance negates to turn enemy troops into pigs.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Fairy court gives you the ability to heal afflictions. Given that there are only a few options to heal those (Arcos Priestess, the Chalice, a Tien Chi hero) nature magic is a must if you try to use your pretender in melee and dont want him to spend the rest of his days crippled after the first battle

[Endoperez]

In addition to things others have mentioned, I have always been eager to try Sailors' Death (Thaum. 3) and Bone Melter (NW mix in Alteration 5), both with very good damage (decent armor-neg. or death) with magic resistance save. I don't think they will work well against SCs, but Vine Ogres or similar, easily massable low-mr troops should go down.

With water, consider the options other paths give you. Water-Earth gives Rust Mist and Jade Armor, Water-Fire Acid spells (unresistable evocations that destroy armor!), Water-Air has frost cloud or somesuch, Water-Nature gives aforementioned Bone Melter. Water-Blood gives Frost Fiends and Ice Devils, neither exactly easy targets.

[HotNifeThruButr]

I just looked over water spells again, and I thought of an interesting combination. You take a level 3 water mage (is there any easy way to boost a level 2 water to level 3?) and get Quickness and Sailor's Death. Quickness would allow casting two Sailor's Death spells every turn, right?

[PvK]

Yes. Water Bracelet is Water-1, 5 water gems, minus any construction bonuses.

Note that all TC mages, even the cheap ones, have Water-1, so can make those bracelets, or just go around casting Quickness, then Frozen Heart and repeat.

Oh Bottles of Living Water are also good "immortal" units, which also work underwater. They are also good for winning assassinations and arena combats...

PvK

[Oversway]

Falling Frost is a great battlefield spell. For the most part it is better than Falling Fires, I think because for frost the aoe increases with magic levels where fires does not. Either that or damage.

I havn't been able to use Bone Melter very effectively. One aoe and it is not effective against etherial and I think has a magic resistance save. It has 'weird' paths to boot. Compared to most other spells at that level, not so great.

I'd say cloud spells are at their best during siege battles, when troops get clogged at the gates and stay in one place for a long time.