when to fire back

Smersh · #1 May 18th, 2006, 04:15 AM

this is a very basic question: I'm noticing the ai,specifically infantry, opens fire as soon as it within the max range of its weapons on my own infantry. I know at these long ranges 10 hexes (500m) or so, that fire is not very deadly or effective (although if there is enough firepower, it has quite alot of suppression)
should I stop my advance and exchange fire at these "ineffective" ranges, each side attempting to out surpress the other, or try to push ahead through the suppressive fire and get to more hand to hand deadlier ranges 200m<?

cbo · #2 May 18th, 2006, 04:59 AM

Depends on what you have at your disposal and in how much of a hurry you are. If possible, you should exploit any range advantage.

If you have tanks, mortars, infantry guns or artillery at you disposal, stay where you are and pound the enemy infantry silly before you move on. Heavy MGs can also be used to suppress and subtle differences in infantry armament can be exploited as well. Some infantry units, particularily early war, do not have machineguns, only rifles, which can give you a small 1-2 hex range advantage. If that is the case, you can sit back outside rifle range and suppres the enemy infantry that way.
Then you can move in and get close and personal. Of course, while doing so, you may run into other enemy units, which will also have to be suppressed.

If you have no supporting arms and have to move on, have one unit in front while the rest of the platoon is in support and try to deal with the enemy infantry one unit at the time. This would mean playing the "suppression game" at long ranges, trying to get the upper hand. Should the opposition turn out to be too strong, you can likely extract most of you platoon, only risking the forward unit.

Trying to move on, into the enemy fire, to get close without suppressing the enemy will likely result in your advancing units suffering unneccesary casualties and suppression. Also, as more enemy units may pop up and fire at you, you could end up suppressed and pinned trying to fight a larger force.

With tanks, the game is similar. However, if what is firing at you cannot hurt you, just move closer, in the same manner as with infantry - one tank forward, the rest of the platoon in support. Do not move next to enemy infantry. They might close assault and destroy your tank. Also, you may be hurt by the blast from your supporting tanks firing at the enemy unit if you are too close. If you bump into enemy antitank weapons, you need to assess whether they constitute a real threat or not. Tigers can get pretty close to 45mm AT-guns, for example, while the same gun can be deadly vs a light tank. If the anti-tank weapons can defeat you, stay at safe range and try to find out where they are, then pound them with HE (use Z-fire until you know exactly where they are). Of course, you should also call in supporting arms, if the tanks cannot deal with the threat themselves.
Trying to press on regardless with tanks can easily end in tears, as it only takes one shot to wipe out a tank, while infantry is more resilient to damage.

My two �rers worth, anyway

Claus B

desh44 · #3 May 18th, 2006, 07:09 AM

One thing I find which works is to have some scout units in my force. They can move closer without taking fire and bring the enemy under fire to suppress. In addition they can sometimes spot other enemy elements. I find that where there is one squad there are usually several others as well as possible heavy weapons further back. Like Claus said when you come under fire try to suppress the firing unit. Another trick is to switch off fire from unit to unit when you shoot so they do not get any bonus for firing consecutive shots at your unit.

The game now forces you to use good combined arms tactics if you want to succeed. Send in scouts to find them use Arty and Heavy Weapons/Assault guns to suppress them and then move in close to mop up with your infantry. I am finding that a good unit choice is motorcycles or cavalry. If you hold them back until the enemy is suppressed then you can rush in and finish really hit them hard.

Tom

serg3d · #4 May 18th, 2006, 07:23 AM

You can use your auxlliary troops to draw fire from hidden artillery/infantry/mg and detect them. That would be especially historically accurate for russian penal companies.

PatG · #5 May 18th, 2006, 09:49 AM

If the AI's or your opponent's infantry is popping off at max range - you are being given a gift. A couple of refinements. Use tanks especially Shermans, early Mk IV with short 75mm, StuG/Hs and/or infantry guns. Killing MGs and rifle infantry is what they were designed to do. Second, use smoke to blind the infantry, then move up close while adding a little HE on the opposition then when the smoke clears you are at short range against a supressed enemy.

Concerning scouts, I will usually set their firing range to 1 hex - sometimes a little more. Using one hex per turn advance rates and/or cover you can usually get scout units very close to the enemy and pinpoint their positions. The short range also prevents your scout from revealing themselves through op fire and allows you to select when to use them to suppress.

Smersh · #6 May 20th, 2006, 12:27 AM

this is related "when to fire" question. . I usually have my machine guns fire around 500-600 meters from the enemy in support of infantry squads. since infanty combat seems to be more deadly compared to mbt, enemy squads tend to kill my mg crews by rifle fire from around 500m. am I just too close to the enemy, when firing? how far away should an mg be to be safe and still effective? too me 500-600meters is the limit.

serg3d · #7 May 20th, 2006, 04:16 AM

I'm using 12.5mm HMG on the max range. Almoste never got fired back.

czerpak · #8 May 20th, 2006, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Smersh said:
this is related "when to fire" question. . I usually have my machine guns fire around 500-600 meters from the enemy in support of infantry squads. since infanty combat seems to be more deadly compared to mbt, enemy squads tend to kill my mg crews by rifle fire from around 500m. am I just too close to the enemy, when firing? how far away should an mg be to be safe and still effective? too me 500-600meters is the limit.

Smersh,
use your weapon to your advantage. It is a question of having more accurate fire from closer range, or having bit less accurate fire but from safe position. If we are talking mg's here I'd rather check enemy max range and put my mg's 2 or 3 hexes beyond. Obviuosly everything depends on tactical situation (how desperate you are to take out eneymy and how much time you have left), but you got to answer a question if it is worth taking a risk or not. And if you will need those mg's later.
cheers
Czerpak

czerpak · #9 May 20th, 2006, 05:47 AM

Quote:

PatG said:

Concerning scouts, I will usually set their firing range to 1 hex - sometimes a little more. Using one hex per turn advance rates and/or cover you can usually get scout units very close to the enemy and pinpoint their positions. The short range also prevents your scout from revealing themselves through op fire and allows you to select when to use them to suppress.

Ideally scouts should be used as...scouts. If you need to use those valuable units to supress enemy, maybe your force composition is not quite right.
Make an experiment - try a game with your scouts' weapons OFF. See how valuable info you will get from them, especially in later parts of the game, when they are behind enemy's line.

Much more cost effective will be e.g. using mortars to supress spotted anemy units and leave scouts to keep an eye of them.

cheers
Czerpak

PatG · #10 May 20th, 2006, 06:52 AM

Quote:

czerpak said:

Ideally scouts should be used as...scouts. If you need to use those valuable units to supress enemy, maybe your force composition is not quite right.
Make an experiment - try a game with your scouts' weapons OFF. See how valuable info you will get from them, especially in later parts of the game, when they are behind enemy's line.

Much more cost effective will be e.g. using mortars to supress spotted anemy units and leave scouts to keep an eye of them.

cheers
Czerpak

I don't disagree with what you are saying - in fact that is exactly how I use my scouts. However, I have found that, when the tactical situation warrants it, a scout unit can usually take one or two shots at a unit and remain unspotted. This can add enough supression to make your assault go through.

Note that I tend to play Japanese with one scout per platoon as purchased. This is a higher ratio than some other armies and the scouts represent a significant chunk of the platoon's firepower. The much more expensive "recce platoon" boys need to be treated more gently.