Short 75mm missing its smoke rounds?

[chuckfourth]

Hi All
While I’m on the topic of smoke I have another thought, the short "Kurtz" 75 mm gun was originally designed to be carried in the PZ IV and used as a support weapon, supporting the pz III wich was the gun tank designed to take on other tanks. Typical tasks for the Kurtz 75 weapon would be to suppress MG pits, destroy infantry, lay smoke. The role of this weapon did not change during the war though it was later fitted in the pz IIIn, German armored cars (234/3) and halftracks (251/9) amongst others. The pz IIIn was used as the support tank for the heavy tiger coy’s, and the halftracks and armored cars carrying the weapon were the support vehicles for the pzgrndr and reconnaissance coy’s. However in-game this support weapon is often issued without its smoke rounds. For instance when buying a single Zug of PZ IIIn only the first command tank has smoke rounds, same for the 234/3, in the pzgrndr armored coy none of the sdkfz 251/9 have smoke rounds. I wonder if this could be remedied?
ie
No matter what vehicle the weapon is issued to or what formation that vehicle is part of, could the 75mm Kurtz have a few smoke rounds.
Best regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

Nope - because as we already said, smoke is issued by unit class in the internal code, and not individual weapon in the database.

Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy
OK so I have had a look at the classes. You cant change pz IIIn from 'class 13' medium tank to 'class 15' CS tank then?
Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

Which Pz3n in what formation? - there are 5 different pz3n in the GE OOB used for different purposes. (And in which OOB, as there are probably ither users than Germany too).

If you want the CS tank version - buy one(s) that are classed as a CS tank, not one that is in the medium tank class user formations.

Unit class is the template for formation purchase, and changing the unit class will exclued it from the formations that use that template class and probably duplicate the ones already classed as a CS tank rather than as a medium tank, the ones specific to tiger platoons (which have to coexist with the 50mm versions used there) etc. See the mobhack help file on formations.


Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy
Ive read about the formations in Mobhack, very interesting thanks.
But first to answer your question
All Pz3n in All formations. As clearly stated in my original post.
And no "I dont want a CS tank" I would like the game to model the ammo loadout of the short 75mm gun correctly ie issue it some smoke rounds wherever it appears. Again clearly stated in my original post.
What I have found for pz3n.
Greedy little fellow isnt he. He has 3 classes, 13-medium tank, 105-infantry tank and 129-CS tank. Firsly as he is actually a cs tank he shouldnt be included in class 13. Without knowing the details of the classes I imagine either the 105 or 129 class would be fine for this vehicle. If you remove pz3n from class 13 wont this just result in pz3n Cs tank being absent form the picklist for formations that are looking for a gun tank anyway? which the pz3n isnt so jolly good show I should think.
As for your concern regarding duplicate formations either remove one or dont worry about it there are still plenty of empty formation slots. As far as I can see there arnt any mixed 50mm pz3n tiger platoons so again no worries.
Also formation 70 looks wrong in that it should have separate zugs for the tigers and pz3n's not mixed as currently depicted.
And something I find interesting, if pz3n can happily be class 105 or 129 arnt these classes duplicates? maybe one could be used to correctly model the early CS cruiser tanks all smoke ammo loadout.
Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

I'll dig around into this at some point. Class 15 close support tanks ( the early Pz IV's ) and class 129 close support tanks ( the Pz III N and M's) appear to be getting different smoke shells loads ( the class 15 tanks get smoke for all tanks in the formation but the class 129 CS does not) and yes..... they are duplicate classes but they overlap and the OOB designer didn't want them mixed and the ones in class 105 in the German OOB are special "OST" panzer formations and they are that unit class because no other German tanks use that class but other nations do. There are no spare classes so we will not be creating a special class just for the early Brit CS cruiser tanks with an all smoke ammo loadout.

You *MAY* have a point that the PzIIIn's shouldn't be classed as Medium tanks and if I get confirmation of that I will consider renationalizing them in the OOB to keep them out of the Medium tank formations but on the other hand, nobody but you is complaining about them being there and can you say with 100% certainty that they NEVER were used in regular tank formations?


Don

[DRG]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Andy
OK so I have had a look at the classes. You cant change pz IIIn from 'class 13' medium tank to 'class 15' CS tank then?
Regards Chuck.

Just so we're clear on this. In the German OOB the class 15 CS tanks are for the CS PZ IV's. Changing the pz IIIn from 'class 13' medium tank to 'class 15' CS tank will only remove the PzIII n's from the medium tank formations and add them to the back end of the PZ IV CS's tanks availability screwing up those formations. ( Which are supposed to be purely Pz IV's ) The Tiger formations that had Pz III support did not have pz IV's and that is why class 129 is used for those Pz III's but...for now..... class 129 is not coded to get extra smoke shells ( an oversight.. ) and that is being looked into and when it's fixed they will have smoke

However, if you just cannot live with it the way it is now and lay awake a night becasue of it you can change, in your German OOB , the PzIII's that are classed as UC 129 to UC 104 and you will get smoke for the pz IIIn's. That class is not used by any tank in the German OOB

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
No worrries all in good time that is fine by me. Very happy that this is being fixed.

But The issue still remains of the kurtz 75 as mounted in the sdkfz 243/3 and 251/9 and 250/8, not having smoke rounds
Assuming that you agree that these vehicles are designed for the support role as would be apparent from their distrubution within the formations, their weapon characteristics and ammo loadout, then looking at each vehicle individually

sdkfz 251/9 is units 164, 393, 825 or 826 with either class 127-Gun APC (Tracked) or 125-Gun APC (HalfTrack)
Currently sdkfz 251/9 is issued as the gun APC for platoons in a panzergrenadier companies but it very probably should be restricted to the support coy. However the two 'extra' gun apcs in each panzergrenadier company should be 251/9 or more usualy, towed 75mm infantry guns, not sdkfz 251/10 as currently modeled, see
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/...adier_batt.htm
As far as my small knowledge of the classes goes I would suggest that to acheive this remove 251/9, units 393 and 826 from class 125, then formations 357 and 358 need their nested formation 173 to have its two 251/10s unit 165 replaced with 251/9 unit 164. And we need to be able to choose between the Gun APC and "Supprt APC" in the purchase screen. We still need to give sdkfz 251/9 its smoke, looking at the classes in question,
Class 125 has German 251/10s and /9s also it contains the free french unit 292 M3 Halftrack and the USA unit 33 M3 HalfTrack, otherwise its empty for Russia, Itay, Vichy France, Japan, Poland, USMC
Class 127 has the German 251/9s also it contains the British unit 453 and 456 carriers otherwise its empty for USA, Free French, Russia, Itay, Vichy France, Japan, Poland, USMC. Happy to check the other OOBs if neccessary.
So assuming for the moment that only Germany and GB are using class 127 would it be possible to move British units 453 and 456 into class 125 and give class 125 smoke ie make it CS halftrack?
Upon a bit more looking around maybe this is possible also
Could you make 251/9 class 18 like unit 78, M3 75mm GMC and stug IIIe? Interestingly the stugs all get smoke but only the '0' M3s get smoke though they are the same class? maybe its easier to allocate smoke than I thought?
Would it therefore be easy to give sdkfz 250/8, units 160, 310, 863 or 864 using class 32-scout vehicle or 126-Gun APC (Wheeled) smoke?
How about sdkfz 243/3 unit 74 using class 108-Heavy armoured car and sdkfz 233 (should this be 232?) unit 591 also using class 108?

In my travels I have noticed that the Pz3m has the 50mm gun not the 75mm as in the game.
Also German Unit 218 has the wrong picture 75mm instead of 37mm cannon.
Best Regards Chuck.