My thoughts on the concept of the SE5 Design

TexasHawk · #1 January 21st, 2007, 04:36 PM

Hey guys,

*Very* occasional poster, but very long-time player (since SE2). I have watched the series grow and evolve and with the release of SE5, most people ***** and moan about the AI, the bugs, etc... but I think they're missing the point.

Yes, the bugs are annoying and inexcusable but I am confident they will be fixed (reminding some of these new players that SE4 went all the way up to 1.94!) so I feel confident that SE5 will do the same.

The point I want to make is that I do not believe Aaron set out to create a game with uber-AI. Reading the type of fixes, and the type and scope of modding that can be done within the code, I think Aaron in this version set out to create more of a game *system* less than a pure, singular *game*.

Take Civ 4. Yes, it stands on its own as a fantastic computer game and its modding capabilities are probably the greatest of any major-budget game ever released. And there have been some commercial-quality TC's released, but the point is that Civ 4 was created by hundreds of people who had the time to bulletproof the AI. Aaron is not hundreds of people. So I think he made a choice - at some point during the process he sat down and designed SE5 to be whatever the players wanted it to be; he just provided the framework and the documentation.

Of course he would need to provide some semblence of a SP game for those who don't use/can't be bothered with mods, but this game was made all along for people like us - people he knew would one day create the greatest 4X game from his shell in gaming history. And this is the point I think people ultimately miss.

Now, who will create that game.....?

Shadowstar · #2 January 23rd, 2007, 03:37 AM

I think you're right. I've had more fun modding SE5 than any other "big name" mainstream games that are designed to be "completely moddable". There are few games as thoroughly moddable as SE5.

That just means that what we have here is possibly the greatest game ever, we just have to finish it.

President_Elect_Shang · #3 January 23rd, 2007, 10:06 AM

You know Shadowstar that is what I just said over here. I'll say it again! In the end when SE5 is smoothed out and more mods like ST, B5, BSG, and SW are out with matching shipsets those who are running away screaming "I won't play this game it sucks" will be back burning up the threads talking about how they took down a Death Star with a X-Wing fighter group! On that day I will sit back at this desk and say "I told you so". It won't be as much fun saying it to a computer but the principal is the same.

Santiago · #4 January 23rd, 2007, 10:19 AM

Playing Devil's Advocate.

"Yes, the bugs are annoying and inexcusable but I am confident they will be fixed (reminding some of these new players that SE4 went all the way up to 1.94!) so I feel confident that SE5 will do the same."

I am sure that will happen judging by Aaron's past history

"The point I want to make is that I do not believe Aaron set out to create a game with uber-AI. Reading the type of fixes, and the type and scope of modding that can be done within the code, I think Aaron in this version set out to create more of a game *system* less than a pure, singular *game*."

"Of course he would need to provide some semblence of a SP game for those who don't use/can't be bothered with mods, but this game was made all along for people like us - people he knew would one day create the greatest 4X game from his shell in gaming history. And this is the point I think people ultimately miss."

If that's true that he set out to not to create an Uber AI or even a decent AI, and that this is more of a sandbox type game, then it should be advertised as so. It doesn't say on my box that you need to play multiplayer or use mods to play. Nor does it say that the stock AI's are pushover's. For players new to SE, this comes as quite the surprise, just read the SF forums.

You end up alienating some new customers and also get mediocre reviews, which you may think is neither here nor there, but they matter to an extent in that retail outlets which purchased the game (ie Best Buy, GameStop, EB etc) won't buy more or pull them from the shelves and will have second thoughts about dealing with SF again.

There was a post or rumour awhile back that Aaron was doing this full time. For this to work effectively long term, you need sales. So keep that day job in sight.

"for those who don't use/can't be bothered with mods, but this game was made all along for people like us -"

While this may be true, it comes off sounding elitist. What it comes down to is that:

SEV is great for modders, but for players it sux.

As for modding, I hope I'm wrong but I forsee less modders for SEV than there were for SEIV. Why? Slightly more complicated- some people who previously modded but are not programmers see "Scripts" and walk away. Even worse for shipsets- now you need to be a 3d modeler. It would have been better to leave the game 2d with combat being 3d. I'd bet the game perfomance would have been a lot better and less graphics headaches overall.

And I'm sure a lot of you will say modding and shipsets are no big deal, but to a lot of us it is a big deal, whether its lack of skills or lack of time. I didn't want to pay $40 to be a Beta tester. I just wanted to play the game advertised on the box and I can't.

I didn't miss your point I just don't agree with it.

Ironmanbc · #5 January 23rd, 2007, 11:56 AM

Well I can live with the bugs for now because I know there will be a patch that will fix it sooner or later.

Unlike in the 80's and early 90's when you got a game off the shelf and it had bugs, there was little you could do about it now when I buy a game the first thing I do is go to the website and see if there is a patch for it

Fyron · #6 January 23rd, 2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Santiago said:
There was a post or rumour awhile back that Aaron was doing this full time.

It's not a rumor; he's been game programming full time since a bit after SE4 gold was released.

Santiago · #7 January 23rd, 2007, 02:41 PM

Well I wish him the best of luck in this endeavor. It can't be that easy.

Anyway I like the game, have a few bones to pick here and there, trying to learn more about modding, never enough time to play for hours on end. I bought my copy thru SF but saw one in a gamestop on a road trip, so now have 2 (the one from SF showed up eventually and is not opened).

Just wish the game was at the A+ stage. Modders work faster !

Suicide Junkie · #8 January 23rd, 2007, 09:46 PM

Great for modders, sucks for players is totally unfair.

Sucks for players who refuse to download anything but "official" patches, maybe.

Anyone who can download balance mod gets an instant boost in funfactor. Hopefully that will be the gateway drug to the superhappyfunland of full-out Mods.

Santiago · #9 January 24th, 2007, 01:47 PM

That's kind of a narrow view. So anyone who doesn't want to play a mod is out of luck in your viewpoint? As I said in the "Whats wrong with SEV thread":

Mods should enhance the playability of the game, not become the game.

Noble713 · #10 January 24th, 2007, 02:38 PM

Gotta agree with Suicide Junkie. Does anyone think Half-Life and countless other FPS games would be as popular as they are without mods? The basic multiplayer in HL is pretty crappy. It's mods like Counterstrike and Day of Defeat that have propelled it into the stratosphere.

Just look at the numbers from Gamespy:

Quote:

250,147 gamers are online right now
Game Players
� Half Life 98,668
� Half Life 2 79,149
� Battlefield 2 19,146
� Battlefield 2142 14,338
� Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory 13,356
� Call of Duty 2 7,784

Eight years after its release and HL still dominates the genre. I can guarantee you those people aren't playing stock.

Quote:

Mods should enhance the playability of the game, not become the game.

Why does the origin of the content matter, as long as it is fun?