Gun pits

chuckfourth · #1 September 8th, 2007, 09:39 AM

Hi
I noticed something I though was odd in the German OB, units 508 '12.8cm FlaK 40' and 509 '12.8cm FlaK 40' have size 3 but have the same graphic as a gun pit. I dont know if these weapons were ever emplaced in gun pits? I think most ended up on railway mounts or in flak towers, 128 also came in a twin mounting, imagine that baby thumping away! Anyway It seems either the icon or the size is wrong as the 88 when it appears in a gun pit, unit 511 '8.8cm Gun Pit' has size one. I notice that the 8.8cm Gun Pit is discontinued in june 43, I would have thought the jerries would have been emplacing them in right up to the wars end.
Best Regards Chuck.

MarkSheppard · #2 September 8th, 2007, 10:03 AM

They're there as stand ins, because towards the end of the war, a lot of 88 and 128 emplacements were used hastily as fortifications to hold off the russians.

chuckfourth · #3 September 8th, 2007, 10:21 AM

Hello Mark
I see, so they should be size 1 then?

Marek_Tucan · #4 September 10th, 2007, 08:15 AM

The 128mm Flak was HUGE. I think it deserves the size of 3. Hard to dig hole deep enough to hide that sucker

chuckfourth · #5 September 10th, 2007, 10:49 AM

Hi Marek
Here are the widths of the cruciform platforms the guns are mounted on and the gun heights,
88 width of platform 2.3, height 2.36
105 width of platform 2.45, height 2.9
128 width of platform 2.5, height 3.55

So compared with the 88 the 128 gun pit needs to have 20cm bigger radius.
As you are aware the 3 guns profiles are virtually identicle. Lets say you can dig 3/5 of the gun below ground level then the difference in gun pit depth is 2.1m - 1.4m ie .7m deeper for the 128, probably not to much bother when JS3's are on the way. Using the same reckining the difference in above ground profile between the 88 and 128 is .9 m and 1.42m thats the difference between a short man kneeling and a short man standing up, or in the case of the 128 maybe two short men standing up holding hands, surely worthy of size 1?
Best Regards Chuck.

chuckfourth · #6 October 28th, 2008, 07:13 PM

Thanks for addressing this, and changing the german gun pit sizes down for the last patch, However I did notice something curious,
the German 128mm gun pit got changed down to size 2 from size 3 though I suggested it should be size 1.
If we have a look at the British OOB we see that units 293 and 294 the 223mm gun pit and the 150mm gun pit are both size 1. Seems a bit unfair that the much smaller german gun has a bigger size than the British 9.2 and 6 inch gun emplacements when dug in.
I think it would be most sensible to give the 128 size 1 rather than bulk the 6 and 9.2 inch up to 3 and 4.
I repeat a point I made in the origional post also, The 8.8cm Gun Pit is discontinued in june 43 I would have thought the jerries would have been emplacing them in right up to the wars end. especially in places like Norway. I wonder if the 88 gun pit could be extended into 46 like the 105 and 128 gun pits?
Best Regards Chuck.

DRG · #7 October 29th, 2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Thanks for addressing this, and changing the german gun pit sizes down for the last patch, However I did notice something curious,
the German 128mm gun pit got changed down to size 2 from size 3 though I suggested it should be size 1.

Chuck.....just because you "suggest" something doesn't mean I'm going to do it or agree with it or even enter into a debate about it on this forum. Right now is the exception to my personal rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

If we have a look at the British OOB we see that units 293 and 294 the 223mm gun pit and the 150mm gun pit are both size 1. Seems a bit unfair that the much smaller german gun has a bigger size than the British 9.2 and 6 inch gun emplacements when dug in.
I think it would be most sensible to give the 128 size 1 rather than bulk the 6 and 9.2 inch up to 3 and 4.

Life just isn't fair sometimes Chuck. I'm sure if you take the time to really look at all the OOB's you may find other gun pits that don't quite live up to your standard of what's "fair" but as there are over 12,000 units in the WW2 OOB's that dozens of people have had a hand in crafting that might take a bit of time but I have no doubt if someone really put their mind to it we could play "That's not fair" for days on end but when is all said an done it will make this >< much difference in how the game plays out

From what I can see of that series in the Brit OOB it's a cut and paste typo where whoever added it forgot to change the sizes or simply figured size one was good enough. Who knew 7 or 8 years and thousands and thousands of game play hours later by thousands of people ( 1 ) person would make an issue out of it. The fact it's you is no surprise. You seem dedicated to ensure that your favoured Nazi hordes have every advantage in the game but in this case I think I'll make the Brit pits a bit larger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

I repeat a point I made in the origional post also, The 8.8cm Gun Pit is discontinued in june 43 I would have thought the jerries would have been emplacing them in right up to the wars end. especially in places like Norway. I wonder if the 88 gun pit could be extended into 46 like the 105 and 128 gun pits?
Best Regards Chuck.

NO Idea, I hadn't even realized there was a cut off date for that. I'll put it on the list and see if anyone involved with this OOB knows why. It may have been intended to be upgraded and was simple forgotten about. On the other hand that end date looks to be tied in with the end of the North African campaign.

Don

Marek_Tucan · #8 October 30th, 2008, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Hi Marek
Here are the widths of the cruciform platforms the guns are mounted on and the gun heights,
88 width of platform 2.3, height 2.36
105 width of platform 2.45, height 2.9
128 width of platform 2.5, height 3.55

So compared with the 88 the 128 gun pit needs to have 20cm bigger radius.

Post necromancy, yay!

Actually, according to Germans, not 20 but 50cm radius, that is 1m diameter.

Just for illustration and as food for thoughts, here are two bits from Osprey Fortress 023 - German field Fortifications 1939 - 1945. Schematics of gun pits along with description of various fighting positions and with dimensions of gun pits:

And 3.7cm FlaK gun pit (concrete):

chuckfourth · #9 October 30th, 2008, 06:14 AM

Hi Don
Ive seen pictures of 88 gun pits as part of the permanent coastal defence for Norway. I doubt very much if these were all removed some time in 1943.

Well the size of the British guns I guess depends on wether its the 6 inch disapearing gun shown here,
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Us...oastal_Defence
or the more traditional "naval" mount brought to land shown here.
http://www.fortsiloso.com/guns/6in.htm
its the first picture.
Heres a picture of the 9.2 inch gun.
http://www.fortsiloso.com/guns/6in/no1/no1.htm
My apologies for using the word fair, I assumed the person who made the change had looked at the other members of the class but obviously not.
For me it would be a great help if you could change OOBs in the Database check utility.
Just for the Record In my current PBEM Im playing as Jap, Jap, Russian, British, US Marines. I'm not interested in giving the Nazis or any other OOB an advantage I am interested in helping you remove errors from your OOBs and Modeling, giving everybody a better game. I think the game is Great.
Best Regards Chuck