What Would be an Ideal Pretender for Niefelheim?

[AlgaeNymph]

In particular, I'm looking for a way to make the most out of both my Jotun skinshifters and Niefel giants/jarls.

[sector24]

Extended discussion on Niefelheim:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...fpart=all&vc=1

Wiki on Niefelheim:

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Dominio...ons/Niefelheim

Short Answer:

Get Nature 9 or 10, and possibly another bless such as W9 or E9. Take Order 3, Cold 3, and the rest is really up to you. Skinshifters are somewhat eclipsed by the Niefel Giants in the early era because they are just so powerful.

[Torin]

I would give them N8 E8, and spend the rest on scales.
Berserk is good but could prevent your mages to cast spells.
Armor +4 is good but they can wistand damage well.
If I have to choose I would give them armor +4.

Oh, and high dominions is great (and expensive) because the cold +3 will sometimes precede your cold powered giants.

[OmikronWarrior]

I'm currently in a multiplayer game as EA Big N. and before hand spent a lot of time experimenting with them in SP beforehand. I ended up with an Enchantress with 6N-6E-4W-4S-4B-2A. This gives you 3 reinvigoration and 10% regen. In retrospect, I would rather had at least 2F in there as well. I can't remember scales off hand, but I they were generally positive including 3-order and of course 3-cold.

With that, just 4 Niefel Giants plus the 2-holy priest (Gote?) to bless them are enough to take most indie provinces. Barbarians and Lancers will give you some trouble, so skip around those until you're ready to come at them with more than 4 giants.

Thats your early game, Midgame is where all those paths I picked out for the (sleeping) Enchantress come in.

Here are paths you get from your national spell casters:

Water-
Blood-
Death-
Nature-
Astral- requires some luck
Air- Barely, N. Jarls have a tiny shot at 1 Air

Paths leftover.
Earth-
Fire-Covering this someway or another is vital.

Basically, now is the time to put your N. Jarls to use. My basic kit was 1 sword of quickness, 1 luck amulet, boots of the messenger, and a horror helm. Script bless and Quicken Self and you have an army eating SC capable of beating any PD (especially if you keep in the cold as they get +1 defense for every tick on the cold scale).

BUT, against spell casters (in particular Air and Fire), they are in trouble as spamming fire and lightening attacks can kill them. They are also vulnerable to firebrands, which ignore their defensive prowress and do +50% damage thanks to fire weakness. This is where it become vital to get an air and fire gem income. Crossing your fingers and hoping for Enchantresses isn't going to cut it.

So, modify your own "kit". For example, add that copper armor that gives thunder immunity. Also useful are Winged shoes which give you flight, though you need to make up the revig difference from loosing messenger boots.

Also, look to cast Mother Oak and Gift of Health. Obviously Mother Oak gets you more gems to cast GoH and forge all those Nature items you'll want, while GoH will fix various afflictions and more importantly give your giants an HP boost, which when combined with regen is close to a "win" button. Also, during the mid game you'll want to start forging clams.

For blood hunting, Big N. is a little gimped in this department. They're blood hunters cost 200 gold apiece and using them for that purpose takes them away from research, which N. will already be behind in due to the aforementioned high mage costs.

As for End game, chances are you'll want to start fully outfitting all the Jarls you put into the field and have them start working in groups. Also, MR boosters. Then, start setting up Tartarian factories. In another direction really get the blood economy going to summon the various blood SC. Big N. is well suited to operate under Astral Corruption, as their Jotun Skinshifters can cast Claws of Koktus(sp?) with boosters to keep Horrors away. Also, though I wasn't thinking this when I made the Pretender, your enchantress can also cast this spell, meaning free reign in forging expensive stuff and casting globals.

[DrPraetorious]

The Niefel Build that I just won with was an imprisoned, E9N9 Cyclops.

A few points in his merit:
1) An E9 pretender will enable you to take, and keep, the Forge.
2) A N9 pretender will enable you to take, and keep, the Gift of Health and the Gift of Nature's Bounty.

The N9 bless means your Giants seldom run - and thus can generally kill fear-causing SC pretenders, otherwise a significant weakness.
The E9N9 bless together also provides 4 points of reinvig and +*6* protection.

Quick strategy advice - recruit a bunch of Niefel Giants. WHenever you have money, recruit a niefel jarl.

Pick two of your weak neighbors, kill them.

Get Wolven Winter as soon as you can. Another key spell is Freezing Mist, which is your most efficient means of popping GLamour.

Make friends with your other neighbors - promise them the world if need be, but you don't want to fight more than 2 players at once, especially strong opponents.

[OmikronWarrior]

My problem with such a build is it means tanking your your economy and most likely relying on a smaller, fewer but more powerful armies. With Big N's incredibly bad PD (I think scouts can win with less than 10) you are incredibly susceptible to economy crushing raids (stealth, flying, etc.). Bum rushing enemy capitals can work rather well, but if they are to distant or your opponent knows what he or she (ok, he) is doing- you can find yourself in a world of hurt unable to afford more sacred units. N. Giants and Jarls are still very effective with a E6N6 blessing, and you save a lot of points that way.

Still, DrP is a much better player than I am, so he knows what he's talking about.

[Jazzepi]

DrPraetorious said:
The Niefel Build that I just won with was an imprisoned, E9N9 Cyclops.

A few points in his merit:
1) An E9 pretender will enable you to take, and keep, the Forge.
2) A N9 pretender will enable you to take, and keep, the Gift of Health and the Gift of Nature's Bounty.

The N9 bless means your Giants seldom run - and thus can generally kill fear-causing SC pretenders, otherwise a significant weakness.
The E9N9 bless together also provides 4 points of reinvig and +*6* protection.

Quick strategy advice - recruit a bunch of Niefel Giants. WHenever you have money, recruit a niefel jarl.

Pick two of your weak neighbors, kill them.

Get Wolven Winter as soon as you can. Another key spell is Freezing Mist, which is your most efficient means of popping GLamour.

Make friends with your other neighbors - promise them the world if need be, but you don't want to fight more than 2 players at once, especially strong opponents.

I've never felt that the extra 9th point was worth it. I think you'd do just fine with N8E8. The difference is 2 points of protection, I believe, which is marginally important compared to the extra points you'll get back from not upgrading those levels.

I almost always pick 8th level blesses.

Jazzepi

[DrPraetorious]

Earth 9 vs Earth 8 is *4* points of protection.

N9 vs N8 is more questionable, since it provides berserk, and since it costs a lot more (given your chassis is a Cyclops.)

It's true that Niefelheim is vulnerable to raiding; but this is true regardless of build. The best way to deal with raiders is to send out single Niefel *jarls*. They only cost money so the key is to cultivate a philosophical attitude about their death.

[Jazzepi]

DrPraetorious said:
Earth 9 vs Earth 8 is *4* points of protection.

N9 vs N8 is more questionable, since it provides berserk, and since it costs a lot more (given your chassis is a Cyclops.)

It's true that Niefelheim is vulnerable to raiding; but this is true regardless of build. The best way to deal with raiders is to send out single Niefel *jarls*. They only cost money so the key is to cultivate a philosophical attitude about their death.

Um, you get the +4 protection from E8 and E9. The only thing you get from E9 is one extra point of reinvigoration. I don't think it's worth it to spend all those points to buy a free single point of reinvig for all your jarls when you already have +4. This is why I argue that it's worthless to spend those extra points on it.

I've always question your need to go to N9. I know you just won the sophistry game with that build, but N9 is very expensive. I'd personally rather just go up to N6 for 10% regen or N8 for 15%. I personally don't even like the beserk as it lowers the defense on your jarls.

When I played EA Neiflhem I went W8E8N6 with a crone. Or maybe it was nature 4 I can't remember. But I was very happy with that build. The quickness, armor, reinvig, and regen were all great. You have relatively small armies of high morale bless soliders, and a bunch of raiding giants.

Correction. This is vaguely like the build I used for the EA game I won with Neiflhem. I can't remember exactly what the scales were, but this leaves you with like 3-4 points leftover.

5 Dom
3 Order
1 Sloth
3 Cold
1 Death
3 Misfortune
2 Drain

imprisoned crone
W8E8N4
+4 defense, quickness, +4 reinvig, +4 protection, +5% regen



Jazzepi

[AlgaeNymph]

DrPraetorious said:
The Niefel Build that I just won with was an imprisoned, E9N9 Cyclops.

What were the scales?