imbalance

[istol]

i choose 36 of cluster ammo mobile field guns and they destroyed almost everything in opponents army and he gave up in turn 8

isn't those quite overpovered for the cost ? all cluster and bomblet ammo weapons

i would pick them even they cost 3x as much as they do and they would still be great

i think it's quite surprising to find most powerfull units in the game so cheap

are those cost's trying to be in "balance" ?
(well i think they definetely are not)

[narwan]

did you also buy ammo units to relaod the cluster ammo or only the arty units?

Narwan

[DRG]

We've already increased cluster ammo costs in MBT 50%. You just won't see that until the next patch.

Don

[istol]

ofcourse i bought more ammo carriers than the actual artillerys

would not be effective otherwise

and i think the cheapness comes from the ammunition the thing is it got 10 he ammo and 4 ap ammmo costs 63 or something/piece so it's almost as cheap as the ones without cluster ammunition 36 of them was something like 2000 points and opponent said they destroyed something like 1 500 points of stuff in turn 0 + more and more after then

effective way of using them i found is with 1 ammo carrier with 1 artillery piece so they reload them all the time and when i evade counter battery fire they evades too and there is 1-2 turn delay of firing but basically it is possible to fire every turn

so it really doesn't matter if you have 20 ap or 4 ap rounds when used that way actually it is better to have 4 than more because of cheapness (and you still can fire every turn basically if not evading)

also there is the issue of exp affecting the cost in artillery it affects less (at least in my experiences of winspmbt) and in helicopters tanks apc:s etc it affects second less so that in these categorys i think it is more effective to buy cheap vehicle and in artillery more but with infantry it maybe happens to be more effective to buy high exp + morale units than low it affects much much more in infantry
basically i think best army lists are cheap countries who got infantry who have bonuses to exp + morale to compete with infantry of high exp countries and to have greater number of things like sam's etc getting very big advantage over high exp country
this occurs in games of 10 000 points and less never played more
maybe this thing reverses in bigger games (and i see the formation limit is 200 it is getting in the way in 10 000 points game with low exp countries)
especially with use of cheap cluster artillery it can devastate the high exp high cost machines with very low exp too doesnt matter to the ammo the exp

[Moon Pine]

O_o +50% for cluster Artillery?
I think +50% for on-map clusters is enough, off-map clusters are just OK for now.
And for me, the problem is that the MLRS with cluster munition reloads too crazy fast.

[narwan]

The 'problem' is the ammo reload; the reload capacity is based on the warhead size, not the cost of the rounds. So the very expensive cluster rounds reload as quickly and easily as the much cheaper HE rounds.

There are a few work arounds though for PBEM games. One is to disallow onboard arty with cluster rounds, only offboard arty with clusters allowed. That will solve the 'problem' in most cases. But there are instances where that eliminates a substantial part of a nations on-map arty purchase options. For those you can use another agreement, to only use the amount of AP rounds allocated at the start of game. Reloaded AP shells aren't used (simply don't plot new cluster strikes for the unit), only the HE rounds. That represents that cluster rounds weren't usually available in large quantities and would be used for specific targets only. So no more blind cluster strikes all over the map.
I've used that agreement in PBEM games myself and it does work. You'll have to trust your opponent to play it fair off course.

Another way to solve the problem of not being able to buy an on map arty unit because it has AP rounds is to look for a similar unit in another OB without the AP rounds and then purchase that (set as captured). Now you'll have the same unit type but without cluster rounds (used that too in the past).

Narwan

[Moon Pine]

And maybe the armor cost of the Artillery units needs to be reduced, too.
For example, In my view at least 150 of the 330 points for a TOS-1 is just for its heavy armor and a TOS-1 worths only about 200 points.
As for a SPAA, who won`t lead an assault, heavy armor`s not so useful as the tanks and IFVs, so it shouldn`t weight too much.

[Marek_Tucan]

But then such vehicle would be used as a cheap assault gun and WOULD lead the attacks

[Moon Pine]

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

But then such vehicle would be used as a cheap assault gun and WOULD lead the attacks

But they have no direct-attack gun
And for scout use, they can`t fire barrage after move.

[Griefbringer]

One point to keep in mind is the size of the map - if the map and the deployment zones are small, then it is easier to saturate the enemy deployment zone with the pre-battle barrage.

Griefbringer