Appropriate artillery for Russian Battalion?

[Mobryan]

Calling Chuckfourth,PanzerBob, et.al.
I'm curious what artillery would normally be assigned to a Russian battalion level formation.

My current core force:
1 KV-1 company
1 Marine company
1 Partisan company
1 T-34 platoon
1 platoon of scouts
1 battery 57mm AT guns
1 battery 37mm AA guns
1 battery 107mm mortars
1 battery 152mm offboard guns
1 battery 122mm offboard guns
Plus a few odds and ends for logistics.

What would have been historical for a formation this size? I ask becasue my last battle was a meeting engagement with a German Kampfgruppe, 6/1941. It was an eerily perfect twin to my force, but they had a noticable advantage in artillery numbers. It was odd, I'm the Red Army, I'm not supposed to be outgunned!!! Or am I?

Thanks,


Matt

[Imp]

Without looking I would say probably rare for the partisans to have arty, perhaps 1-2 small mortar or small as in 37 field gun. So that only leaves an infantry & tank com reinforced so for a meeting the 152 is to much. Or at least tone it down to a 122 though I suppose you could keep the 155 if used exclusivly for CB as in its not under your control just doing its own thing.

[PanzerBob]

Your force given the time frame would be representative of a force reformed out of escaped/retreating forces of around BN Plus. Artillery is handed down from Division to Regiment at this time of war; Regt would decide what a Bn would get in support, likely depending on mission and availability. I would say your artillery would be very heavy for BN core forces, as Imp has mentioned. However, as attached from higher in your support forces, it would not be out of line if the Bn is part of the main push, advancing or assaulting.

However being an adhoc force cobbled together from odds and sods, who's to say what artillery you managed to pick up. Personally I wouldn't dump the artillery at least for a year when your unit would be a properly formed line unit again.

As the war progresses, this support will become more liberal to say the least: I'm sure the Russians must have a saying which says "You can never have too much Artillery!!" or something to that effect! LOL


This gives you an ideal of where the Batteries come from generally.

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/s.../rfldivart.gif

This for later in the war, but has the breakdowns of the attached Artillery Unit, plus many other interesting details.

http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/russianob.pdf

This is for early in the war, but doesn't give details of the guns being assigned by higher.

http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/blitzewruss.pdf

Hope these are of help. Bottom-line for early in the Ostfront, Some Units were being thrown together adhoc, as the Russians reeled back. I'm playing a PBEM as the Russians in just this situation and roughly the same size unit, although I started with fewer tanks and old ones at that. My force has fair share of Artillery as well only because I'm considering it a Fire Brigade.

Bob out

[narwan]

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/...r/__stavka.htm

Gives a good indication of standard fromations in the soviet army of the time. Btw you can click on some of the formation symbols for more details on it's composition.

Go to 'home' and 'index' for lot's more ww2 TOE&E's.

Narwan

[Mobryan]

Thanks guys- That core started in Finland with a regular rifle co. instead of partisans, the regulars were called away to ride herd on a bunch of conscripts when the Fascists invaded.

Bob-I tried the ACG and fire and fury websites earlier, from the American OOB thread, but just couldn't get the information out of them that I wanted Thanks for the summary :thumb:

Imp- that's exactly what the 152's do, counterbattery and emergency taskings.

Shifting gears and reequiping from the Winter War to GPW proved to be a lot harder then I expected, at least while maintaing any semblance of a storyline. I don't pretend to be any kind of history fanatic, but I do like build a reasonable story behind my forces, why they are what they are, special equipment, ect.

Thanks again

Matt

[Imp]

Mobryan probably a general rule of thumb would be 1 or 2 mortars per inf com. Per 3 inf com add 120mtrs or a battery upto 122mm max. Ignore your tanks for arty assigned or maybe add one batt if have a lot. By batt I mean troop 1 spot 3 or 4 guns not 12-16 guns. You can then add extra support for none meeting engagements based on the needs & these can be larger than 122s or rockets. You will not realisticly normally get huge amounts for a force your size.

[gila]

Finnish troops having no good armour to deal with the russian armour.
Why would you use heavy Aty.?
They can never get close to burn them
The Finns did'nt do it that way,
they ambushed!

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobryan
One thing to consider is that when the Russians began forming their artillery divisions they largely aquired the guns from current line divisions AFAIK. So the Russians had a very large artillery firepower at the point where they would launch an assault or to drop in front of a defensive position. However when on the advance or mounting a spontaneous counterattack for instance, They may in fact have had to use divisions whose artillery complements were less than standard.
Also without looking too far into it the artillery divisions tasks they may have been limited to pre-attack bombardment, defensive bombardments or similar. I say this as I believe Russian artillery divisions wern't integrated into the line divisions command and control structure but acted independantly.
This link describes the composition of one
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...um=8&ct=result
Best Regards Chuck.