A few random questions re: MA TC

[Stryke11]

Hello all,

I guess I'm just not very good at this game, though I love it. I only play SP and I'm still constantly challenged by the AI. Many on here seem to think that the AI is sooo bad that playing SP is boring and cheating, so though I win more than I lose, I'm doing something wrong.

Anyway, to the real questions. I am playing MA Tien Chi. I liked them from the Pantokrator Let's Play on the Something Awful forums, so I put together a game with the same nations though on a different map. Currently (about Spring in they year 5 - is there a way to see turn number?) I'm fighting a three front war with Machaka to the north, Ermor to the east, and Man to the south. At the beginning I expanded quite nicely and I'm definitely either the most provinces or close. Magic research is set to difficult (my last game I researched everything before the game was even half over) but I'm still well above the competition in research. However, I'm being slowly whittled down due to no money and no answer whatsoever for the spiders of Machaka.

1) TC has many different styles of units. I know enough to know that the shielded troops are best to draw arrow fire, and the higher the armor, the better (but slower mapmove). I hire mostly Imperial troops as the mapmove 1 isn't too much of a hindrance because it's only a few provinces to the front and they are tougher. What tactical situation would call for the glaive or long spear (polearm) troops? No matter what I field against the spiders, they are webbed and crushed. Even mass archers/crossbowmen with wind guide isn't helping. I looked through Baalz' MA TC guide but can't get the horseman strategy to work. He says they shoot a few times and then charge. Mine just keep shooting.

2) I brought Machaka's capital to over 200 unrest with about 7 consorts, but then all of a sudden they were all discovered and killed in one turn. I thought once unrest was over 100 they couldn't be found? Even so, shouldn't one or two have not been found?

3) Money is a problem but shouldn't be. I took 2 order and growth 1. I didn't do order 3 because I spent the points on a more "thematic" pretender (lich just seems so generic) since I like to roleplay a little bit with SP (also explains why I like national armies). But still, geez, my armies are TINY compared to my opponents, who have less territory to pay for them. Is it because I recruit an Imperial Alchemist each turn? They are not sacred and expensive so that's all I can think of.

4) National summons. Celestial servant is terrible. I understand not everything should be awesome, but if they go through the trouble of creating a special troop with it's own sprite and everything it shouldn't be so worthless no one uses it. Hounds fly but spiders tear them up just like everything else. I haven't got to the fox spirit or the celestial soldiers. Hope they are at least decent. Can someone break down the summons and their uses/lack of?

5) National spells. Internal Alchemy. What's the point here? Who cares if your mages are made younger if they become insane? What a horrible trade off! Can insane be cured by healers/GoH/Chalice? I know Shattered Soul can't. Ginseng is good but only five years makes it tedious, but at least it doesn't have horrible nerfing side effects.

6) I'm using the conceptual balance mod 1.7 Masochism Edition (first time, before I used CBM Complete. I don't use regular 1.7 as I think making dwarven hammer unique is retarded.) and am having a bit of trouble getting used to new forging paths. Is there is list of path requirements out there like there is for Vanilla?

7) I haven't got into communions yet, but I haven't had to as the spells I've researched can be cast by national mages by themselves. I have gemmed Air Alchemists casting wind guide and lightening bolt, Earth Alchemists with boots casting blade wind (seems to purposely avoid the spiders in favor of the archers in the back), Fire Alchemists casting fireball and fire cloud (?), and Water Alchemists casting frozen heart and freezing mist (?). This is effective, but not nearly effective enough as I'm frequently outnumbered 5-1 and a few Alkies get killed each battle since they have to be close enough to cast and so get hit by stray arrows, even with a troop screen and air shield in the case of air Alkies.

Sorry this is so long. Just trying to get a handle on this nation and there isn't much written about it. I tend to learn one nation at a time (I just learned EA Ulm with a bless strategy and feel pretty confident there) and am not typically so boned by the AI. Thanks!

[13lackGu4rd]

1) glaive troops should be used against high protection enemies, mainly heavy infantries. long spears have long range, therefore good repel, so they're best at holding the line against regular short/broad sword infantrymen. Baalz's guide specifically mentions the use horses with hold and attack orders, not fire. that way they fire for 2 turns if in range(so put them towards the front) than attack.

2) it's still possible to discover spies but it should be awfully hard at 200. the most likely scenario I can think of is that the AI started to patrol his capital with a huge army(probably with good patrollers too, anything with patrol bonus, cavalry and fliers are especially good patrollers).

3) order 3 would have really helped, you should have cut somewhere else. what's your production, growth and temperature scales? also, how large are you, with how many forts, etc? usually having a gold shortage in the late game is very odd, but considering that you're mostly using non sacred mages and huge armies, it isn't unheard of. just make sure you have enough forts(especially on high income provinces like farmlands) and that you don't have troops sitting around doing nothing. you can also get some patrollers of your own to extra tax some provinces for a larger income.

4) celestial servants are basically meat shields. they're pretty big so they're a favored target for spells and attack large orders. that's the only reason to ever get them, and it's a good reason. the other summons are better. hounds as you said provide flying support. celestial soldiers are very solid line troops, and are also bigger than your normal infantry.

5) internal alchemy is a very problematic spell, for the reason you mentioned. generally the only reason to use it is if you get some rare randoms on your old mages and for some reason you can't craft an elixir of life or boots of youth for them. insanity at below 10% isn't that bad, though it can still be annoying from time to time, more than that and it's really starting to be a pain in the rear. so if you do use it, make sure to not use it too much.

6) every mod has a change log file. that should have everything you're looking for.

7) not sure what your question is, but Baalz' guides, both on MA TC and on communions give a ton of very useful information on them. "and a few Alkies get killed each battle since they have to be close enough to cast and so get hit by stray arrows" you're doing something wrong here, if your alchemists move forward in order to cast. script them with spells that have longer range, to not risk them like that, it's just not worth it.

[Stryke11]

Thanks for the quick response.

1) So then would glaive troops be the best against spiders and spider riders? I'd have shields up front soaking up the arrows then have the glaives swoop in from the sides? Whoops on the cavalry. I was having them fire.

3) Order 2 Prod 2 Cold 1 Growth 1 Magic 1. Pretender was a dormant Jade Emperor (should have had him imprisoned) with fire death and nature added to create Lamia Queens (with boosters and empowerment - it's SP and usually I have a ton of gems so I can be inefficient like that), flaming skulls, and also site search what my nationals can't. Of the three "Asian" pretenders (JE, General of the East, and the Buddha looking one) he seemed the best.

4) So you should have Celestial Servants to stand out front and take punishment? They last longer than a handful of regular Imperial troops? Ok. Wish they had trample. They seem pretty hefty from the sprite.

7) Yeah they are behind everyone else but the archers seems to target the back for some reason and I don't want to put them too far back because I don't want the AI to cast waste spells because they are too far to do their thing. How about tactics. Where on the field should units go? I have archers at the top and bottom right in the middle of the placement window. I have shield infantry in the middle and slightly ahead of the archers so the back of their "box" is about aligned with the front of the archers. Other infantry I have close around but slightly behind the shield guys. Mages are inside the boxes of the archers but toward the back (precaution against flyers and to make buffing easier). I never have mages in the "middle" vertically in the placement field.

[Rytek]

Usually the large army stacks the computer puts together are horrible morale due to all the starvation. This is doubly so with the Spiders of Machaka because they are large and eat more supplies. Try using large groups of mages casting Panic to force a retreat. Try to do it in an area where you can cut off its retreat paths and the large armies start to disapear.

Pd is usefull against the AI. Start recruiting indep commanders everywhere. Merge them with your armies and have small blocks of 5-10 shield infantry guarding them while your commanders use HoldX5 or you can give them bows and have them fire closest. Have 3 or 4 of these blocks spread across your front. Behind your front should be your archers. The horse archers are probably not the most efficient vs the AI. Better to make the cheapest archers to have more of them. The AI will never target them as long as something is closer.

Spiders actually have a hard time killing because of their low damage and big size. Crushers (construction) and Wood Golems make good blockers and will pile up spiders around them.

[Stryke11]

Thanks!

All those Nature 2 guys an I never thought to cast panic.

I restarted with the General of the East pretender and just gave up on Lamia Queens or diversity and just gave him a ton of air and earth. First I had him make a dwarven hammer for himself, then a few other guys, and now he's pumping out staffs of elemental mastery for all the alchemists. It's cheap and I can't think of any other units in the game that would benefit from it more.

Still haven't played around with communions because a) it's complicated and b) I have micro problems in that it's hard to get all the right people together (ministers with the same random, etc).

Really, even now with a more successful game (order 3 prod 3 this time, and no cold, I had my pretender imprisoned) the only "grown up" strategy I'm using is having a scout travel with my armies to feed air gems one at a time to my 2A Alkies or Celestial Masters to cast wind guide. With the help of my elemental staffs I have some 3F Alkies and either by empowerment or the forge spell I'm going to get flaming helmets for them so I can start casting fire arrows. Crystal shields is another option. If Celestial Masters don't get earth randoms then I can use the geomancers to make them with some boosts. It's SP so I don't have to be too efficient.

[Jarkko]

Regarding Machaka: Slow the spiders down. Especially Prison of Fire and Quagmire, but also False Fetters, Encase in Ice, Earth Meld and Storm of Thorns (if you've made it that high in Evo) are the things to stop the spiders. Your missile troops and evocations will make short work of spiders as long as they do not get into contact with you.

MA TC has *beautiful* paths for some amazing combat magic. The Acid thingies, Magma thingies and Gifts from Heaven, you have all those at use.

As an example, lets take a situation where you have no items and very limited gold at use. Recruit five Imperial Geomancers. Script the four Geomancers highest on the list with Communion Slave, Hold, Body Ethereal, Gifts from Heaven x 2, Spells. The geomancer lowest on the list is scripted, Communion Master, Power of the Spheres, Summon Earth Power, Body Ethereal, Personal Luck, Spells. Each of the slave geomancers are thus boosted to E3S2, while the master is E5S4. Each Geomancer will get off about two GfH before they pass out, and that should be enough unless you are facing a massive enemy army (and then you wouldn't just field five Geomancers, would you ).

Another example. You mentioned you have lots of Imperial Alchemists and lots of hammers at use. You can craft a bunch of Slave Matrixes and a Crystal Matrixes, as well as a Crystal Shield. Give any mages high on the commander list Slave Matrixes and an Imperial Alchemist low on the list the Crystal Matrix and Crystal Shield. When this bunch enters combat, they all are in an instant communion with Power of the Spheres in effect; that is to say all of the mages with a Slave Matrix start with +1 to the magic paths without any fatigue. Now the communion slaves are scripted with whatever you want them to do, while the Communion master does the buffing (Summon Earth Power, Summon Phoenix Power, Mistform, Eagle Eyes or Wind Guide (if you have large enough communion so that the communion slaves do not pass out by the fatigue caused by the Wind Guide), Strength of Gaia etc. Notice that you can add in more slaves (Geomancers) who are scripted with Communion Slave, Holdx4, Stay behind troops, they will help to spread out the fatigue from the Communion masters spells so that the Imperial Alchemists won't get too much fatigue from the buffs. If you add in more communion slaves this way, you should consider handing out more Crystal Matrixes to get more Communion masters, to speed up the buffing. Anyway, you should end up with Imperial Alchemists with effective spells elemental levels at four (and more if you handed out to them items to buff their spells levels; water bracelets, earth boots etc). Nothing in the world the AI will be able to throw against you will be able to handle the storm of Flaming Arrows, varios Acid and Magma spells, Falling Fire and Frost, while your effectively Nature 5 mages take care of the army wide buffs (Relief, Mass Protection, Mass Regeneration, etc).

[Finalgenesis]

When playing vs AI, a crutch (cheat?) I use when I have S and/or W path (and D to summon of course) is:

Summon a bane team, 1 bane + 2 wights (8D), each bane team should have a handler to cast W and/or S buffs (E is a bonus), celestial master in your case.

You may consider forging 2x frost brand for the bane leader, which will up it's killing rate by a LOT.

A single team can handle 60-120 summons + troops...etc with no losses consistently. I've beaten 150ish horned serpents, fall bears ...etc with a single team. The placement and script:

1) Mage adjacent but behind the bane stack, in the very back.

2) Bane leader on hold x3, attack.

3) 2x wight bodyguard in seperate formation overlay onto the bane leader (if you put 2 wights in the same formation and stack onto bane leader, 1 wight will not be in the same square)

4) Mage buff: quickness, body ethereal, luck, iron will, air shield

5) watch things die.

Once you have a team + handler. use them in isolation from everyone else except other bane teams, The mage must be 15 squares+ away from anything else except bane teams and mage, otherwise the quickness targeting will get ****ed up. Use 2-4 teams for the really big battles, feel free to put stuff up front to divert fliers, but be careful of 75% hp rout rule.

Humans can counter this easily but AI will only counter it by accident. Some things they may do that can counter you: mass banish (not if you have iron will or antimagic), fire elemental (ouch, you may have to switch to 3x bane teams and throw fire rings on them), incidental national troops with magic weapon, certain magic summons with hard hitting magic damage (rare), fliers (screen up front), fast chargers (screen up front) ...etc

cost efficency aside and for amusement, make a bane stack with 3x banes all with dual brands, do the usual buff cycle on them and laugh manically as they scythe down waves of chaff every round.

[Amorphous]

Reading guides here on the boards is a very good way to learn, but you need to keep in mind that in some ways SP and MP differ a lot. In SP there are a lot of things you do not need to worry about from the AI (like effective SCs and good mage usage), but on the other hand some MP techniques do not work that well (like light raiding thugs).

As you have noticed the AI recruits a lot of troops, so you need to be able to scale up whatever you do. Now, TC has a lot of good mages and that is what you should concentrate on. Your troops are there to defend them and mop up the pieces of the enemy once the mages are done. Buy and buff your troops accordingly. Buffs like Wooden Warriors and Legions of Steel make even the low cost, low resource troops adequate defenders and that with relatively low encumbrance. That last is important, because in drawn out battles fatigue is a killer. Also it saves you a lot of money.

Same really goes for your glaive troops, but here it is about offence. They are not there to defend, so go with the cheap ones and buff them with Strength of Giants (and Weapons of Sharpness when you have it) for some extra punch.

Then you can start helping your troops by de-buffing their opponents. Consider Curse of Stones here, tired troops are easier to hit and have trouble hitting you.

As Jarkko said, slowing the Machakan spiders down is important as it gives your mages, bow- and crossbowmen time to finish them off. Jarkko gave a number of good suggestion and you should look through the spell list to find out what suits you and your mages. You do not always need powerful mages to get the job done - Swarm is e.g. a great spell for slowing down armies and the caster only needs to have N1.

This brings me to my next point which is the importance of not just using your top mages. You can only hire one Imperial Alchemist or Celestial Master per turn, which is far from enough when fighting multi-front wars against the AI. There are plenty of ways to use your non-capital mages, even if they do not have (enough) magic paths especially suitable to the situation at hand.

To take an example the Master of Ways always has a water pick, which means he can cast quicken self. If his other pick is not of any use in the current fight, hand out an Ice Pebble Staff. A couple of quickened Master of Ways with Ice Pebble Staffs can freeze a number of enemy squares very quickly.

Communions are great, but if you have trouble bringing it together there are plenty of things you can do with S1 casters without it. Have a higher level astral mage cast Light of the Northern Star. Your S1 casters are now S2, which gives them a lot of options. Against the AI hordes you could consider Stellar Cascades. It is a S2 spell with decent range, good area coverage and relatively cheap fatigue-wise. It does AP stun damage, so a number of mages spamming this will quickly make large swaths of the enemy troops very easy to hit and crit, if not pass out completely.

When you use decent numbers of cheap mages, a lot of spells that seem to weak on their own start to look very enticing.

[Stryke11]

Thanks to everyone for the help. It's amazing how you can come up with these strategies that are so elegant and seem so simple to read them and yet I'd be flailing around forever and never think of them.

Final question: Are their any thug chassis (aside from the generic ones every nation gets) that people have used for TC? Are the Prince Generals any good? Or the fox summon? I didn't purposely select a bless but just from my paths I do have reinvig +3 and air shield 30%-ish and the PGs and the summons are sacred. The spring power thing seems cool but it's only good 1/4 of the time and I'm not even sure when the spring is in the game.

[13lackGu4rd]

no, TC doesn't have any unique summonable thugs, and Prince Generals aren't really worth thugging because they got pretty low hit points(especially when it's not spring) and no magic at all for self buffs. as MA TC you shouldn't worry too much about thugs and SCs, most other nations are better at them than MA TC ever will. MA TC's strengths are a good and diverse troop lineup and terrific mages tailored for battle magic. if you haven't started learning about communions than start now, it's essential for such a mage reliant nation.