@Don and Andy - AFV resizing project

[Mario_Fr]

It was while playing a long campaign for Germany that I sometimes wondered about the relative size of other AFV`s. Were the Polish, and French tanks really that much smaller than the German ones?

Then I made some tests. I dumped the icons in Mobhack and compared A LOT of different AFV`s icons.

It`s very difficult to come up with numbers, but I guess that 90%+ of all the AFV icons are properly relatively scaled and sized. That means, that you easily can take any AFV icon and cross compare it with any other AFV icon and you usual come up with the proper relative size, i.e. if a AFV is smaller or bigger than another, it`s by the 6 inch for 1 pixel size given in the manual.

But there are serious exceptions for this. Some icons are really obviously too small (up to 25%).

My intention is to resize these icons. I DO NOT want to alter them (except for the resizing).

Now some examples. I usually choose an AFV which has comparable size to check if an icon is sized correctly. I usually take German AFV`s icons as basement because their relative size is quite correct through the whole OOB (they belong to the 90%+ icons):

The Panzer IIF hull icon (unit #3; icon #1012 in the German OOB)
is 4810mm long and 2280mm wide.

The Russian T-70 (icon #4291)
is 4285mm long and 2420mm wide.

Difference is 52,5cm in length and 14cm in width. So the T-70 should be 3 pixel shorter and 1 pixel wider than the Panzer IIF, right? (1 pixel is 6 inch = 15,24cm)

Well, it`s 9 pixel shorter and 3 pixel SMALLER than the Panzer IIF. That`s a deviation of 6 pixel in length and 4 pixel in width, alltogether the T-70 is some 25% too small.

Have a look, stock T-70 and Panzer IIF:



And this is how it should look like after resizing:





Here is another example, the Polish TK-S (TK-3)
lenght 2580mm, width 1780mm





To sum it up, I want to first identify all the AFV icons that are too small, and then resize them. I already did all the russian AFV (BA-64, BT-5, BT-7, SU-76, T-26, T-37, T-38, T-40, T-60, T-70, ZiS-30).


If Don and Andy are interested I can make a list and send them all the icons as bmp.

[AMX]

I'm pretty sure that, technically, the German icons are too big - counting the pixels in the "stock" image:

The T-70 icon is 28 px long.
28*6=168"
168*25.4=4267.2mm

That's as close as it can possibly get - only 17.8mm short.

The PzII icon is 37px long
37*6=222"
222*25.4=5638.8mm

Much longer than it should be - closer to 1 px = 5", in fact.

[scorpio_rocks]

My understanding is that the icons were originally done to a scale of 1 px = 5" then were changed to 1 px = 6" - a lot of the earlier drawn icons were never updated (most of the german stuff!). This is why some of the modded icons are significantly smaller than the original.

I think I recall Don saying on a thread about this that he had no interest in redoing all the SdKfz 250 and 251 icons despite them now being "too big" (there are a whole bunch of modded icons which are to the smaller scale).

At the end of the day this is a game and the icons are merely a visual representation of the vehicle, etc they represent. They were never supposed to be in true scale (remember we have different ground scale, vehicle scale and infantry / cavalry / bike scale)

[Mario_Fr]

Originally Posted by AMX

I'm pretty sure that, technically, the German icons are too big - counting the pixels in the "stock" image:

It`s not the German icons that are too big, 90% of all the icons are in that way. You can compare the Panzer II icon (or any other German AFV) with a T-34 or a Sherman or the Matilda II and you`ll find them all scaled the same way. But in relation they are done properly, so the T-34 is approximately 6 inch for 1 pixel bigger than the Panzer II.

So it`s much easier to adapt the 10% to the majority than the other way round.

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks

At the end of the day this is a game and the icons are merely a visual representation of the vehicle, etc they represent. They were never supposed to be in true scale (remember we have different ground scale, vehicle scale and infantry / cavalry / bike scale)

It`s true that we have different scales (infantry, vehicles, airplanes) but within the groups I don`t mind having them relatively scaled in a proper way. And it can be done by resizing roughly 10% of the vehicle icons.

If an icon is 1 or 2 pixel too small I don`t care much. But if an AFV is 25% off I do.
Resizing doesn`t take long, I`ve already done 1/4 of the work, the only question is if Don and Andy want to include these or not.

Cheers

Mario

[DRG]

1 pixel = 6 inches and I know the 250 and 251's are too large but you REALLY over estimate how interested I am in tearing shp files apart or using somebody else mods and the nit picking. I've had enough experience in the past with people taking over all length that included gun overhang to be hull length ....... I don't know if that's' the case here but I'm NOT interested in dealing with it at this time at all

I will look into the differences in the T-70 and Pz II next winter....... NOT now and I'm not the least bit interested in getting drawn into a debate over a few pixels difference at this time OR any interest in resizing 10% of a few thousand icons because one or two players think its a wonderful idea.

clear enough ??

Don

[Mario_Fr]

Yes, very clear and no reason to get annoyed.


Best regards

[DRG]

I thought I had made it quite clear that I DO NOT have time for things like this right now or the near distant future so please excuse my annoyance for being drawn into something that conceivably could involve hundreds of game Icons and entering "corrections" to virtually all the SHP files involving Icons that thousands of players have used for, in some case over a decade especially as I don't agree with some of the resizing you have done.

If YOU want to build a mod with your changes and post it to the mods forum be my guest. if you want to provide us with a list of what you consider to be incorrectly sized vehicle Icons I will look into it in 5 or 6 month no sooner but making up corrections based on no real scale is a sure way to compound errors and your T-70 hull does not match a 1:6 ratio OR a 1:5 and maybe neither does the PzII but "fixing" one to match another without a scale just makes things worse. Early Icons may have been made to a cockeyed scale but later vehicles were built 1:6 and any differences would be original source difference...............SOMETIMES I add a pixel or two to length or width to get more pleasing WxL proportions but something 14' 1" is 169 inches and at 1:6 that's 28 pixels so the T-70 Icon in the game now is one pixel short and that could be due to the stats used to build it at the time...... it's easy to find source differences in the hull length of a Tiger tank. What if anything is wrong with the Pz II I will look into later and the TK-S in the game now might be 2 pixels too narrow but your "correction" is way out for something that's only 70 inches wide so if anything needs to be fixed it will be me fixing it but thanks for the offer.



Don

[Mario_Fr]

Well, I don`t regard myself as a person that usually comes up with some crazy claims and wants you and Andy to promptly fulfil these demands to my expectations.
That`s why I offered you to make a list and first point out all the icons that are imo not properly sized relatively. The images in my first post were meant to illustrate the incorrect relativ size and were not supposed to be the ultima ratio.
Also my intention to foist on you some manic icon of mine is substantially small. Maybe you have had several bad experiences but working together with someone can actually be a relief as long as it is absolutely clear who is the boss and this is you. I may be a little naiv in this aspect but yes, I want to help to improve this game. That`s why I offered you to do the resizing.
I`ve done some icons on my own and I am well aware of the work that comes along with it. Even if it would be "only" the inclusion of the icons, it`s an heck of work in ShpEd.

As for the wrong scale of my resized TK-S and T-70. Yes, you`re right but very very few AFV icons are actually based on a 1:6 scale.
The big majority of the AFV icons is based on what you called cockeyed scale (it`s 1:4 or 1:5??).
So the question is in which direction the icons should be adapted so that the relative size of the AFV`s among each other is correct. For me it was no doubt that the minority should be adapted to the majority and it`s that thought that the resized images in my first post are based upon. That`s why I`ve increased their size, so that they match the cockeyed scale.

Interestingly enough the cockeyed scale icons usually have a proper relative size among each other, so I always thought they were done deliberately.

But maybe it`s best to come up with hard data first. I will make the list and write you a PM when it`s done. Do you want the unit or the icon numbers?

Regards

Mario

[DRG]

What I want right now is for you to go back and read post #7 and pay close attention to the first line because I REALLY don't think you are paying attention to what I'm telling you . I DO NOT have the time or interest ATM

I strenuously disagree the majority of the Icons in the game are outside the 1:6 ratio but this is as far as I'm willing to be drawn into a discussion about it until MAYBE some time in the later part of the year.....if then . . If you find something a couple pixels out I DO NOT CARE..as it's not the least bit important but if you find something grossly wrong you can tell me all about it in the fall but you are just as wrong about the su-76 being the wrong size as you are about the T-70 both are within a pixel of 1:6 which is "good enough" as I already said sometimes I add or shave a pixel off or add a bit to the mudguards or fenders and then there's the added shadow line which should never be counted as part of the vehicle width or length. The Pz II IS off scale though.

If you really feel the need to "fix" these in you own way that's why there a mods forum but I have ZERO interest in getting involved