Question: oddity when arty shoots at loaded infantry / gun

[Mario_Fr]

I`ve seen this already in some campaigns I`ve played and always regarded it as bad luck but then I did some tests.

Here is the situation:

Infantry or a gun / mortar is loaded on a truck or a prime mover. An artillery strike lands in a field adjecent to my truck. The truck gets no damage (just buttoned), the infantry dismounts but always with casualties.

Even worser when the truck has loaded a gun. The truck gets no damage but the gun is destroyed and it`s crew usually killed.

But why? No damage to my truck means that the bombardment has not hit me, right? But why the loaded gun gets destroyed? Shouldn`t damage only occur when the truck is actually hit?

By the way, it`s that way with primary and secondary Inf weapons. You have to hit the truck and cause casualities to it in order to damage and or destroy the passenger / the gun.

Here is a scenario that shows the situation (#450).
The SdKfz 7 are loaded with guns, while the trucks are loaded with infantry. The bombardment is set to aim at a hex in front of the trucks.
It`s better to turn fast arty off to see the result.

[Mobhack]

Soft vehicles dont protect passengers. The soft vehicle needs to be hit, though not damaged, for the passengers to be forced off (usually with casualties) as with tank riders.

With artillery fire, not all hit messages are displayed, just perhaps one of the several units touched. Especially when fast arty is on.

The moral is therefore not to let soft transports get near falling artillery, ditto with tank riders.

Basic

[Mario_Fr]

But why the loaded guns gets destroyed 9 out of 10 times?

I could agree if the artillery fire lands in the same hex as my vehicle (when fast arty is off you see by the explosion where the strike did land). Then it`s just splinters and bad luck.

But sometimes (with fast arty off) out of an arty strike only one explosion landed adjecent to my truck (= more then 50m away). Destroyed was the gun, it`s crew killed and the truck not even scratched nor buttoned.

When you shoot with infantry at a truck, the loaded gun only gets destroyed when the truck get`s casualties first. So the truck was hit and the "passenger" damaged. With arty it`s different and I wonder why.

Cheers

[Mobhack]

Because it is a crewed weapon. Crews are considered to be closely bunched together and so can on occasion lose more for the same value of hit.

That is the way it has always been with SP. Its the same with guns, mortars etc carried inside a protected APC if penetrated. Infantry will bail better, mortars and guns less so.

[Mario_Fr]

Well, it`s not much of a difference to me. An infantry troop of 10 guys is as bunched together on the soft vehicle as a gun crew of 10 chaps. The only difference is that there is also a towed gun behind the vehicle.


And what about the idea of restricting the code a little bit so the destruction of the gun only occurs when the arty actually lands in the same hex as the vehicle and not adjacent?

Cheers

[Imp]

Units do not change status when they become a passenger, crews always suffer the penalty while squads always don't.
So yes as a passenger the gun & crew are at higher risk, coded for it being on the ground as they are the majority of the time.

On the plus side you don't have to limber unlimber the gun or point it covering a specific facing while its on the ground.

Turn blast circles on if you really want to see if the truck was hit.

Just because it landed in the adjacent hex that does not mean it was 50m away. Your vehicle is somewhere in the hex as is the arty strike.

Look at videos of the effect of artillery on soft vehicles to see how devastating it can be.
Artillery hurts soft vehicles with shock wave, debris etc
Conversely regular gunfire has little effect on a vehicle especially a modern one with all the crash protection unless it has AP rounds.

All that happens when the vehicle escapes unscathed but the passengers don't which happens with standard infantry weapons as well as artillery is the blast or gunfire was not strong enough to cause major damage to the vehicle but went straight through the window/ canvas cover & killed the occupants.

Also happens with armoured vehicles on occasion when hit, passengers die but vehicle is fine. Shot either passed straight through killing them or exploded in compartment without other major damage.

Then there are other strange things that can happen if this video is to be believed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmHVgBh7Lx8

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Imp

All that happens when the vehicle escapes unscathed but the passengers don't which happens with standard infantry weapons as well as artillery is the blast or gunfire was not strong enough to cause major damage to the vehicle but went straight through the window/ canvas cover & killed the occupants.

Also happens with armoured vehicles on occasion when hit, passengers die but vehicle is fine. Shot either passed straight through killing them or exploded in compartment without other major damage.

Yeh-heh. Just happened to me in an Spmbt campaign (Russia vs Nato, '86-7) when my precious engineers in a Russian APC came next to US dug-in infantry (it's an assault, natch). The infantry fired something--the message delay was a bit too quick to specify exactly what--which killed or wounded the passengers but spared the crew and vehicle. Stuff happens!

[scorpio_rocks]

Originally Posted by jivemi

Yeh-heh. Just happened to me in an Spmbt campaign (Russia vs Nato, '86-7) when my precious engineers in a Russian APC came next to US dug-in infantry (it's an assault, natch). The infantry fired something--the message delay was a bit too quick to specify exactly what--which killed or wounded the passengers but spared the crew and vehicle. Stuff happens!

I believe that in an assault the passengers disembark to fight the attacking infantry, so will often take casualties rather than the vehicle.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks

I believe that in an assault the passengers disembark to fight the attacking infantry, so will often take casualties rather than the vehicle.

They do occasionally try to dismount as part of the assault code, in order to protect the vehicle. And if they survive they can get to shoot the attackers in the face - sometimes.

I have seen a vehicle get toasted leaving its crew plus some angry ex-passengers in the wreck hex who then shot up the assaulters as well, but rarely.