Visibility

[Rysgame]

So, I know that <10 vis represents night time, and 50+ represents a nice sunny day, anyone have a comparison chart for what certain weather conditions would be? IE Moonless night/Storm/Etc?

[DRG]

There has been one floating around for years that's a general guide but 5 visibility for example ( 250 meters could mean very light fog or early morning or half moon.....whatever you think it could be...basically if you can't see far.....neither can the other guy unless he's got TI


Weather.......................................Moon Phase.....................Visibility in Hexes
Night Clear........................................ Full..........................................26
Night Clear....................................... Half..........................................20
Night Clear ....................................... None ........................................16
Night Light Fog/Rain/Snow..................... Full.......................................... 8
Night Light Fog/Rain/Snow..................... Half ........................................6
Night Light Fog/Rain/Snow.....................None..................... .....................4
Night Heavy Fog/Rain/Snow.....................Full .........................................6
Night Heavy Fog/Rain/Snow.....................Half ..........................................4
Night Heavy Fog/Rain/Snow.....................None..................... ....................2

Day Light Rain/Dust/Mist..........................na.................. ..................26 - 40+
Day Rain/Light Snow/Heavy Dust/Light Fog.........na...........................10 - 30
Day Heavy Rain/Snow/Fog/Sandstorm.........na.............................. ......4 - 10
Day Blizzard, Monsoon, Heavy Sand, etc..........na................................... .2


Andy and I DO NOT use this as a guide but apparently some players do

[Rysgame]

So what scale do you guys use? I played SP back in the day as a kid, now I am working on making a series of scenarios to represent a campaign and would love to incorporate night missions

[anlubue]

I would consider the range of the weapons in relation to who is defending whom.
Smg vs. Rifle = i would consider that this would not be a challenge if the visibility is 20 Hexes.

[Mobhack]

See the list Don provided, then decide for yourself.

Also take into consideration whatever night fighting gear your troops (dont) have, typical early infantry night sights are about 5 hexes. Later ones may be 19, and some 21st century riflemen get 15-20. 20 is a kilometre, and was about the planning range for typical (Tank sized) vehicle-mounter infra-red searchlights (typically, those would be 800-1000m, some smaller ones (on light AFV) maybe as low as 300-400m).

When fighting without any night gear and with visibility 1 or so, its difficult for defenders to give covering fires since they can only see 1. You need as a defender then to line up shoulder to shoulder.

1-2 would be the darkest of nights with no moon, 3-4 a typical moonlit night. Otherwise, why have riflemen with 5 vision?!. The table given as a suggestion that someone else thought up thinks a clear night with full moon is 20 odds hexes (a kilometre!). Personally I dont see that at all. It's far beyond the capabilities of even 1960s IR searchlights - so why would they bother with them if you can see 20+ hexes in clear night (according to the compiler of the list).

So to summarise:
1 - deepest darkest night (maybe with rain, or heavy clouds)
2 - otherwise moonless night, or moonlit with rain etc.
3-4 - fully nighttime with some moonlight.
6-10ish extremely clear night or dawn or dusk perhaps.

The first useful US infantry weapon with an IR sight was the M1 carbine with same, a big clunky thing with a max of 100 yards - 2 hexes in other words. So 2 hexes at night is worth having, and it would only be useful at my recommended deepest night (1 hex vis).

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Rysgame

So what scale do you guys use? I played SP back in the day as a kid, now I am working on making a series of scenarios to represent a campaign and would love to incorporate night missions

What do you mean by scale? A Hex is 50m just like SP1 and SP2

[Imp]

Base it on what you know there cant be any hard & fast rules, visibility can be anything from a few metres to what 30 miles? from my experience.

Night with no moon for example, heavily populated area as in city glow or even in the city visibility is way more than if you were in the middle of nowhere.
True darkness is amazing you would be lucky to make out a tree line at 100m you know somethings there & the brain finally makes sense of it. Seeing a man at that treeline not a hope in hell.
Get under the trees you can probably see 3-4 arm lengths if its a thick canopy.
I would assume something moving would be detectable at greater distance as you will pick up the motion. Also as a thought if it was your natural environment you might well see better especially if you know the area as your brain would make sense of what your seeing.

The night sky is amazing its full of stars.

[jp10]

As I look at it...

If one wishes to set a consistent system for night visibility I believe this topic is lacking a baseline assertion to frame the issue. While the numbers can vary by argument they should follow a logical pattern. There are many assumptions which are not spoken because the type of weather and moon condition in a battle is only interpreted by visibility range and not an editor setting.
Base calculation night full moon.
1. The base number of visible hexes should be night with full moon on flat featureless terrain like a sports field.
2. The worst weather types possible would be a number value that would reduce the base number to 0-1 hexes.
3. The 'normal' or average weather types possible would be a number value that would reduce the base number to half value.
4. No weather would be the same as the base number.
5. The weather types between worst and normal would be 1/4 the base number.
6. The weather types between normal and no weather would be 3/4 the base number.

Calculations for night/no moon would be done in the same manner. Night/half moon should roughly be at 50% values to night/full moon and night/no moon. 1/4 and 3/4 values would be properly proportional.

Some terrain would need special weather types, i.e. desert terrain might have mirage effects and tropical jungles might have a 'high humidity haze' that reduces the max range.

No adjustment should be made for terrain since that would be a function of the map terrain. A night that you should be able to see 100 yards is not 'darker' because there is vegetation blocking your line of sight at 50 yards. There is just a bloody big bush in your line of sight.
Unit/vehicle size changes to detection in the dark is a function of the game's 'unit size' values.
The night visibility ranges do not need to be changed if your scenario involves 'sneaky recon units' or 'creeping snipers'. That is a game calculation by unit type.
The game would account for night vision technology (but not trip flares or illumination rounds) by applying the values of a unit's rangefinder/vision ratings.
Unit movement or a unit firing weapons giving a greater detection chance would also be applied by the game. No adjustment to the night/weather values need be considered.

The only changes to these night values would be a scenario specific circumstance but it would be a factor that worked for both sides.

[Wdll]

Some times people over estimate how far they can see at night. Mostly because they tend to live all their lives in a city or other settlements with plenty of light. Any vision (sorry for the pan) they have for how night looks, is from the movies/tv/video games, where there is far more light even at worst of times, cause...you know...you need to be able to see what is going on.
If you ever go out, far from any near light polution, if there is no moon, you can't see ****. I am not talking about 50m or more, you can't see 5m from where you are standing. Good luck, not fighting, even walking on rough ground lol.

I remember when I was in the navy, if there was no moon or stars (very cloudy etc), and you were in the middle of the sea, it was like (assume) in space, very spooky and awesome at the same time.

[Rysgame]

I am rather familiar with low light and such (~10yrs Marine Infantry) I was more looking into how others represented lowlight in game so the scenarios I am making are more inline with the industry standard if you will. Excuse the lack of knowledge, still getting used to working with SP systems again.